Liner Notes | Aesop Rock’s “Lotta Years”
Artist: Aesop Rock
Song: Lotta Years
Producers: Aesop Rock
Album: The Impossible Kid
Label: Rhymesayers Entertainment
Release Date: April 29, 2016
Who has the best rap voice in hip hop?
Kris: Chuck D
Devin: Busta Rhymes
What are your favorite bars from “Lotta Years”?
Kris:
I bet you clone your pets, and ride a hoverboard to work.
I used a folding map to find the juice place in the first.
Devin:
Some lady orders Maca, compliments the locks.
She asked how many years it took the girl to grow the crop.
"It took a lot of years and then eventually I cut them,
kept them, reattach them anytime I want them."
Links/Videos mentioned in this episode:
Watch Kris and Devin’s live recording of this episode on YouTube:
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Devin Dabney 00:00
Hi. I'm Devin Dabney.
Kris Hampton 00:09
I'm Kris Hampton.
Devin Dabney 00:11
And this is how… Hip Hop Taught Me Everything.
Kris Hampton 00:21
Okay, first things first: half of this podcast are Lesson episodes, half are these Liner Notes. And if you haven't listened to this week's lesson, "Aesop Rock Taught Me Aging Gracefully", go do that now. My guess is that Aesop Rock never thought he would teach someone to age gracefully, but that's what he's done. Because this is a Music + Talk podcast. Those Lessons episodes are only available on Spotify. And with Spotify Premium, you can hear the full song, in this case, "Lotta Years", immediately after the episode. Now, before we get into this, question: who has the best rap voice in all of hip hop and what is it that makes it so special?
Devin Dabney 01:11
You know, this is a really hard question. And I picked my best voice based off of not just what I like, but how versatile it is, and how, like, how many situations it can be used in. And for that reason, I picked Busta Rhymes.
Kris Hampton 01:30
Hmm, I didn't even have him as an honorable mention and that's a great pick.
Devin Dabney 01:34
Oh man, yeah, he's, he's, dude, his voice is a weapon like, I mean like, even if you just think through his catalogue like the hit songs he has, like "Put Your Hands..." and like of course we know him from "Scenario" but even like you go from those to like "Victory" where he's just the the person doing the chorus, like he can, he can just do so many ranges and styles and it sounds so natural. You know, like, some rappers only sound good fast. Some rappers don't sound good fast at all, like in my opinion. And, and he like blends into every scenario perfectly. One, one honorable mention I do want to say is Ludacris because his voice is like... in my opinion, he's got the best delivery, arguably the best delivery out of any rapper. Just everything he says is like "Pow!" but he's not quite as versatile as Busta Rhymes, in my opinion.
Kris Hampton 02:30
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. You know, I think part of that - and I could, I'm pretty sure this is correct, so we'll fact check it later, but - Luda used to be a DJ.
Kris Hampton 02:30
Yeah, I agree. I think Busta is one of the most versatile rappers ever. Um, Ludacris has this interesting delivery that I really like. And I've always wondered if I like it just because I'm like, from the old school, like started listening to hip hop in '84, because his delivery has like that quality of those old MCs, you know? And I just love it. It, it brings me back a little bit.
Kris Hampton 03:12
Right, he was a radio DJ.
Devin Dabney 03:13
Yeah. So I think he has that like, booming, like, he's used to speaking in a way that's like very enunciated. And like a lot of rappers, particularly in like the 80s, you listen to them and you think like, did, did they realize they don't have to yell into the mic? Like, they, or, like, enunciate everything? I think, I think we talked about that last time, but they they're still learning how to be on the mic. And yeah, Ludacris just like, I think he hit the top of what that kind of delivery is capable of. Because he can still convey that presence, even when he's not yelling, you know, like, just on it, yeah, I don't know. He just has like, such confidence when he raps, that everything he says, like, he has a song called "Undisputed" and the last line in it is like, "I'm the undefeated champ, y'all niggas suck." And I'm like "Damn, Luda. You're right. I do suck. I believe you." You know, like, everything he says is believable, you know?
Kris Hampton 04:10
Yup, yup, I agree. You're right. I think it does come from that radio background because he's kind of got that, you know, he projects really well. So you can tell he's talked into a mic way before he was a rapper.
Devin Dabney 04:25
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, now I want to hear your choice.
Kris Hampton 04:29
Alright. I've got a couple of honorable mentions. Number one is the like raspy biting Jadakiss voice.
Devin Dabney 04:38
Oh, man. I almost...
Kris Hampton 04:40
I just love it and I recently listened to a podcast, Nas and Miss Info interviewing Jadakiss, and as soon as Jada talked Miss Info was like, "Ah! The voice says it all!" Like we don't even need to introduce him now, you know? And and it's, it's so true Jadakiss is so unique. I also had as honorable mention the, the multiple voices of Nicki Minaj. She's so good. And, you know, to try to parallel her with Busta, I think those are my two favorite guest verses ever: Busta on "Scenario", Nikki on "Monster". Um, they both were so good and their voices took over those tracks so effectively, that you just had to hear more of them. So yeah, but, my win, because I started listening to hip hop in the 80s, has to go to the big baritone booming Chuck D.
Devin Dabney 05:45
Yeah, that's fair.
Kris Hampton 05:47
What I love about Chuck is that his his voice matches perfectly what he does with his music and his platform and his life and all of it, you know? It just, whenever he talks, it feels important, and it commands attention. And yeah, and it's almost like, you should be a little afraid to cross him. That's, that's how his voice sounds, you know. And I just think it's perfect with, with what he does with his music and his life.
Devin Dabney 06:17
Yeah, I agree with that. I didn't even I didn't think of it that way until you said that. But, you know, when I look back at the rap that I listened to when I was younger, Public Enemy was like one of the first, if not the first, music that I listened to where I've, I felt like I was being taught something, you know, as opposed to it just being music. And I think, yeah, his voice has a lot to do with that.
Kris Hampton 06:43
Yeah, he's like, he's a teacher, a preacher, voice of a Black Planet. You know, he's just, it's brilliant. And his voice matches it so well.
Devin Dabney 06:53
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm also glad that you mentioned Jadakiss because at first when I was trying to pick my favorite voices, it was hard because I have so many favorites. Like I love Jadakiss's voice. I love, I mean, honestly, I love Tupac's voice like, I think it's really powerful. But those are just voices that I like, and I was like, I gotta pick somebody based off of some like, some like measurable qualities, you know, and like, I think versatility. Because I mean, "like" is subjective, you know? Some people don't like Snoop Dogg's voice. Some people love it, you know? But I think as a rapper, you want a voice that can fit into or adapt to, like, any sort of environment. And yeah, Busta Rhymes. And yeah, Nicki Minaj is someone I didn't think of until you said it, but yeah, basically the exact same thing.
Kris Hampton 07:41
Yeah, it's like how do they use that instrument? You know, that's, that's one of the, the essential parts of hip hop is that the voice is an instrument on the track. It's not, it's not hiding in the mix, you know? It's the main instrument and those people - the Busta Rhymes's, the Nicki Minaj's, the Chuck D's, they, they put that instrument front and center so well.
Devin Dabney 08:08
Absolutely. And on the note of like, just thinking about Aesop Rock, one of my favorite things about like his catalog is listening to his voice evolve over time. Because I mean, in like, his earlier stuff, and like "Flow" and gosh, what, like, day... "Daylight" or "Labor Days", like, you can tell that he still hasn't quite got like how he's going to use his voice. I'm not saying he's rapping poorly. I'm just saying that you can tell that he's still like, learning volume control, and like what to enunciate, and even just like what register in his voice he wants to use. And by the time he gets to "None Shall Pass", definitely by "Impossible Kid", I feel like he's got like the perfect incarnation of his voice, where it's like that deep tone, but also still able to enunciate, which I think is, you know, something that is not given enough credit.
Kris Hampton 09:08
Yeah, I agree. And I, you know, I'm not saying enunciating is better than not enunciating, but, but it does suit him really well, you know? And I agree. And you can you can see him in some interviews - the rare interview that he does - talking about, he didn't like the way, he doesn't like looking back at his catalogue because of the way he was using his voice. And, and I think it's cool that he's aware of that. And he, he's not treating it as just something that happens. But he's very intentionally working with this instrument that he's got.
Devin Dabney 09:47
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that is, again, one of the most important things about being a rapper. One of my friends really early on told me something that I never forgot, which is that rap is not like poetry in the sense of the words carrying the meaning. Actually, like, probably how you say things means more than what you're saying, you know, because how you say something conveys the meaning of it. And also like how you say something, particularly as a rapper, is what makes it stick. You know, like, the reason we remember Jay's verses isn't because of the words necessarily, it's because of the flow. So it's a craft that I think sometimes people don't consider when, about rappers, is that it's not just writing and then saying the words, you know?
Kris Hampton 10:37
Yep, totally. And I think this guy's one of the best at it. It's been really fun watching him evolve, just like you mentioned, you know, all the way from his earliest releases, like, back in Napster days, you know, when he was with Def Jux, and all the way up to now. And something he's doing now, and he did on this entire album - which I really, as a DIY guy, I really appreciate, especially when it's done well - is that he self-produced the entire thing. You know, all the beats are his. And I think he doesn't get mentioned in the 'best MC producer' category maybe ever. But he's got to be up there.
Devin Dabney 11:27
Yeah, I mean, self-admittedly by Aesop Rock, I think some of that obviously has to do with the way he raps, you know. Like, there are some people that, at least like, you know, in his earlier days, like late 2000s, like some people thought that he was just saying nonsense. Like some people thought Aesop Rock was mumble rap.
Kris Hampton 11:49
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Devin Dabney 11:52
Which is crazy. And I mean, he himself is like, "I mean, I guess I could see how you would think that, but I think you'd also have to be totally dumb to not pick up something from what I'm saying." But yeah, like, it's just interesting to think like, I mean, he definitely is not the most accessible person, but I don't know, I like having to work for my meal. So when I was in high school or college - like high school, college is when I found his music - I loved having to like, print out his lyrics and be like, "What the fuck is chicanery? What does that mean in this context?" He's taught me more words than like, probably my whole college career.
Kris Hampton 12:39
Yeah, I listened, I listened to an interview with Open Mike Eagle years ago. And Mike is talking about when he was on tour with Aesop Rock, and he comes off of stage one night, and Aesop Rock is like, "Mike, you use the word spoon a lot." Mike's like, "What?" And he starts thinking and he's like, "Oh, shit, the word spoon is in like four of my songs." It's just amazing that somebody would even consider that. Like, I don't, I don't want to repeat a lot of words if I can help it.
Devin Dabney 13:15
Yeah, I mean, I think that's just like how his brain works. Like when he looks at a umm... I imagine that like the Word Finder that you can use on Microsoft Word, where you type in 'spoon,' and then it's like, one, or four times, like, he just has that constantly. I also love how you kinda like low-key used his voice when you were quoting, "You use the word spoon a lot." I love how he just has like that, it's like a drawl... not a drawl, but especially when he talks on records. Like, I just think it's so funny. Not funny, but, I don't know... it's very unique. He just has a very unique voice.
Kris Hampton 13:54
Yeah, totally. And, you know, something else I love about the idea that this is self-produced is, is that's how so many of us came up initially, was like, we discover hip hop, you know, or it's handed to us or whatever, and when we want to get involved with it, it's all DIY. It's like, how do I make beats? You know, maybe you're just doing it like pounding on the table, maybe you have like a Casio SK-1 keyboard or something that your mom bought you as a toy. But you're figuring out how to make beats, you're figuring out how to rhyme over beats, you're, you're figuring out how to, how to DJ and put songs together. And then you're learning to perform eventually. And I think that's, that DIY ethos is so integral to the fabric of hip hop and you can hear Aesop Rock doing it all the time, which I think is amazing. If we look at the biggest artists, they're, they're not doing a lot of that, you know? They're, they've kind of slid into this space where this is the thing I do well, I'm going to do it and let all these other people do the other things, which is a, you know, a great place to be. It's how a lot of great songs are created. But the fact that he can be so prolific and so consistently good while doing a lot of it by himself is crazy to me.
Devin Dabney 15:27
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean... what you're saying about the DIY aspect of hip hop being important - I think that's part of why as a child, it seems so mythical, and there's like this warrior mindset because it really is like, you start out a quest, level one, with no gear, no weapons, and you like, 'Acquired four track recorder,' and then like, okay, 'Now I have Fruity Loops,' if anyone remembers that program, or like, 'Now I have an actual cardioid condenser mic,' and like just... there's so much about hip hop that just seems so mythical to me because of that aspect of like working forward with, starting with zero, and then just building your support and resources.
Kris Hampton 16:12
I love it. I love it. Another DIY thing about this song that I love, and I didn't make the connection until right now; this weekend, I started on a "Check the Rhime" episode for this podcast, and I was thinking about the year 1991 and what what I was doing in '91. And that was the first time I recorded a music video of my own, like a song that I had written. And at the time, I didn't know, I didn't know enough about making video and I didn't have the, you know, equipment to make a video where you would sort of act out the track. Instead I had to do it live, essentially. And, and the video for this song is live. It's him acting out the story that's, that's happening...
Devin Dabney 17:10
Oh, wow.
Kris Hampton 17:11
...while the beats are playing, but he's actually rapping - it's not him just like rapping along to his own track, it's him actually rapping in the scenario. And it's, it's really cool. It's, it feels very DIY, but it also has enough polish to feel like it's something, something different, something unique, something important.
Devin Dabney 17:34
Is it like one of those - I won't remember the name but - like one of those walking concert, like performances? Like where he's moving? Because, I mean, this scene he says in the song is like that. So it's like the cameras following him? I gotta watch this. Damn.
Kris Hampton 17:50
Yeah, yeah, it's cool. It's, it's playing out all the stories he's telling in the song live, in real-time, while he's rapping. And it's, you know, it's not, it's not the vocal track from the album that you're hearing, you're actually hearing the actual performance inside the ice cream shop, inside the juice shop. So...
Devin Dabney 18:10
Damn, that's cool. Yeah, this is another thing I just thought of... you know, were hoverboards around when he wrote this? Like, I'm just thinking, because - I mean, obviously, they're not like hoverboards in the sense of like, literal like anti-gravity boards but - we do have hoverboards right now. And I'm just wondering if... it's supposed to be a joke in the song that he says, "I bet you ride a hoverboard to work," but people actually do ride hoverboards now!
Kris Hampton 18:43
It's so funny to think back on the things we thought were extremely futuristic, that, that just a few years later are relatively commonplace. Yeah, you know, speaking of, of like, things changing, it used to be - and I'm sure some people still do this, but - when an album came out, one of the ways that record labels would, would distribute it, is to put all the songs on YouTube on a playlist in order, and they would have, very often they would have - and Rhymesayers does this really well - they would have a video that goes for the entire album. It would be something really simple but kind of fun. This one was made by Rob Shaw, it's on the Rhymesayers YouTube channel. I'll have it linked in the show notes here. But it's a complete, abridged recreation of the movie "The Shining"...
Devin Dabney 19:47
Oooooo!
Kris Hampton 19:47
...but very, very low budget with these like strange little wooden figurines and... it's so low budget that the the like iconic opening scene of "The Shining" - it's this long aerial shot of a car driving up this winding mountain road - that shot is a VW Hot Wheel on a string being being pulled along a piece of plywood. And there are no attempts to hide the string, the shadow of the person pulling it, or their bare feet like walking along beside it in the grass. It's so fucking good. And the little figurines are acting out the entire movie. It's, it's hilarious.
Devin Dabney 20:31
That's amazing. There is something to be said, that is an art form, the like, of intentionally making something so low budget that like, it's like, obvious that it's supposed to be funny. I love that.
Kris Hampton 20:42
Yeah, yeah. Same. Back to the DIY hip hop thing, like, there's a real art to arranging songs, you know, putting them in a good order. And this is one of the best examples of it I know, where... when this song ends, the next song on the album is called "Dorks" and it immediately begins with the line, "Question: If I died in my apartment, like a rat in a cage, would the neighbors smell the corpse before the cat ate my face?" And it's like, he spends this whole song confronting his age, and then he's like, "Shit, what about if I die?" you know, immediately on the next song. And I'm a little older than Aesop, by a few years, and, and these are things, these are like real considerations, you know? Like, I'm gonna die. What happens to my legacy? What if the cat just fucking eats my face?
Devin Dabney 20:42
I don't think your cat would do that.
Kris Hampton 20:55
She wouldn't. She's, she's way too sweet for that, but...
Devin Dabney 21:48
Yeah, she's, she's one of the nicest cats I've ever met. Oh, man, yeah. I, I miss that about hip hop, too. I mean, I don't know, I don't want to say that, that rappers don't do that, it's just that, the order matters less nowadays it feels. And yeah, yeah, just little subtle things like that can enhance a song too, you know? Like the order of a song. I think that's what it is: It's not that rappers don't, don't put things in good orders, it's just that the order isn't used as a tool to, to amplify a song, you know? Like, because that song like you said, that song was made better because of the order, you know? And I'm totally doing conjecture, you know. It may be that, that rappers still do put things in a specific order. But I guess it's not quite as obvious to me now. Or maybe I'm just getting older and I can't understand the order. I don't know. I don't know.
Kris Hampton 22:50
You know, I think we could go down a massive rabbit hole of how albums have changed. You know, whether it's because the, the way they're received or the way they're delivered. Whether it's because of the fact that most albums nowadays have, you know, 12 different producers if there are 12 different tracks. So a lot of considerations have to be given when thinking about... albums nowadays maybe don't seem as... saying they don't seem as 'thought out' isn't what I'm trying to say...
Devin Dabney 23:26
Yeah, I get what you're saying. That's why I'm careful with it. I don't want to, I don't want to make it sound like one is worse. But I get what you're trying to say.
Kris Hampton 23:29
Yeah. But this is almost a concept album to some degree, like he spends the entire album really thinking about his age and, and growing older and confronting that, you know, in every song in some way. So I think the order on a concept album means even more.
Devin Dabney 23:52
Yeah, I guess I didn't really think about the album that way. Nothing Aesop Rock does is on accident. And I wonder why he chose to do this, but the title of this album is the same as this old exploitation movie from the Philippines, "The Impossible Kid". It's a, it's a 1982 exploitation film, and it's like a parody of spy movies, and the lead actor is, is someone who has dwarfism. So the whole, I mean, they make a lot of jokes in the movie at this, at this actor's expense, obviously, but he's like a two-foot-tall spy and he's like a, I mean, he's an adult, but he's like, I mean, hence the name "impossible kid." And I wondered, I wondered what... if he did that on purpose? I mean, he had to have done it on purpose, just because I mean, he's such a well-researched person, but I was like, I don't know if I want to interrogate the reasoning behind calling it that so early in our podcast career. But, but yeah, I just wanted to throw that out because it is, it not only is such a, I mean, such a unique title but also I think there's something, he's trying to say something with that. Or maybe he's not and it's just a coincidence, but I doubt it.
Kris Hampton 25:19
Yeah, I haven't seen him mention it in interviews, but, you know, who knows? Those things get stuck in our heads. And, and it would be pretty easy, I think, to draw some parallels between, you know, someone who's got dwarfism but is doing this amazing job that they're, you know, that they're meant to do, and an underground rapper who has had a hard time breaking through to the mainstream and has just decided to do the thing he's doing really fucking well. I think we could draw those parallels all day, I have no idea if they're actual things, but I think that's one of the coolest things about art in general, is that we get to receive it how we receive it and draw the parallels that we want to draw. We don't have to push those onto the artists necessarily.
Devin Dabney 26:13
That's true. That's true. That's one of the beautiful things about, and challenging things about, making art is once you've made it, and you release it, it doesn't belong to you anymore. It becomes, it becomes whatever the the zeitgeist tells you that it is, you know? So you might've, like, he might've not even meant to really like have that coincidence, but I received it that way, and now that's a connection I've made. So yeah, it's just really cool. One thing I thought of earlier that I wanted to say about the DIY aspect of hip hop: one thing that I'm kind of glad that it outgrew in terms of DIY is the, the artwork. Do you remember the era where, where everybody made their album covers on Microsoft Paint?
Kris Hampton 27:05
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Devin Dabney 27:06
And like, it would be... I can't even like, I can't even get the words out! It'd be like them and then like, it's like a fucking airplane, and like, just like, and gold everywhere. And like, dude, and like the words were always that like "Goosebumps" like slime, you know? That's one thing about this that Aesop Rock did not do, he outsourced the artwork to, I'm pretty sure, Alex Pardee, who's one of my favorite like, artists period. Like he has such a cool, evocative, creepy style. And yeah, I actually think that Alex Pardee drew a couple of Aesop Rock's album covers.
Kris Hampton 27:53
Yeah, I think so. The art in his catalogue is really intentional. And I mean, he's an artist, he went to art school, and that's what his background is, so I'm sure he cares a lot about it. And it shows, you know. It matches what he's doing.
Devin Dabney 28:12
God, dude. That's another, yeah, that's another, speaking of art, like that's probably one of my favorite songs on this album is "Rings" because he talks about like, "used to draw.." ahhh, like, man. That's one of my, that might be, hmmm, no. My favorite song is "Blood Sandwich" but "Rings" is a close second. I love "Blood Sandwich". Such a good song.
Kris Hampton 28:33
So much of this album is that way. And I think that's one of the like, signs of maturity in song making is that you, you let a track breathe and you become more relatable. You know, you can look at young rappers, and they're trying to fit as many syllables as possible into a bar. And Aesop used to be really, really complex, and hard to follow. And, you know, and that was part of the, like appeal of it. But this album, he becomes a little more relatable. And, you know, he's really exploring his own story at this point. And it doesn't sound like he's rapping just for the sake of rapping. He's actually got things to say. And that's what makes it so hard for me to pick a favorite song off of this album. They're, they're all so relatable in some way.
Devin Dabney 29:33
That's a fair point, too. Yeah, you know, and I guess that's kind of what I was saying earlier - it's not that he was worse at rapping back then, it's just that it's like a, it's like an unrefined ability that he has, like he just woke up and "I have powers," like and he's like still learning how the powers work. And another another person/group that I think of that has a similar trajectory in terms of evolution is Atmosphere. You know, in, in their early like, "Overcast!" and like, you know those albums, like Slug raps a lot faster, like the the rhythm is a little bit more complicated, and like he's, like you said, he's fitting a lot more words. But then you go to like "Southsiders" and he's got that like... I don't know, it's like he's hit his like final form and he's like, he is the ultimate dad rapper, you know? Like, just like, you know, like, I don't mean that in a bad way, either. I mean it in a way of like, "Sit down, son, you're gonna learn some shit. Like, I'mma learn you." And like, when he's talking to you on "Southsiders" everything he says sounds like, "Yes, you're right, Slug," like, this is like, like, "I need to heed this advice." And but you couldn't get there without the exploration that happened earlier. So...
Kris Hampton 30:51
Yeah, and it's, you know, I think hip hop in general, for many years, was just viewed as a young person's sport. And, and I think that ultimately comes from the fact that it was still young in it's, you know, itself. It's just now that we're seeing rappers who are grownups and who are confronting the things that, you know, life really throws at you and feeling comfortable to talk about it. Not, not feeling like they have to fit into this young person's lifestyle. And, and music, the good music does that, you know? If you look at any other genre, they're confronting real-life grown-people issues. So seeing Aesop Rock doing that, and you know, Atmosphere doing that, I love it. And it's one of the things that draws me to that style of hip hop, you know? Jay-Z does it well. You know, Killer Mike does it well. There are a few other mainstream, quote unquote, rappers that do it really well. And I'm drawn to that far more than the like, you know, the issues that a 20 year old has.
Devin Dabney 32:13
Right, right. And I think as I think about like, music in general, I think another reason that we think of it as a young person's game is because a lot of our most, like, famous musicians have died young, you know. Not just rappers. I mean, like, the '27 Club' is a thing, you know what I mean? And so, I think we just haven't gotten to see our most, a lot of our most like, prized musicians get to an age where, you know, they've, they've been in music for, like, 40 years, and like, you know, they've been through it. Like, there's not that many Bruce Springsteen's, you know? Like people that have lived that long and, and are still making music and still performing. And arguably, like still coming up with material that's really good, just like their stuff was literally 40 years ago. Yeah, so... yeah, and that, I'm glad you brought that up because I was, I was curious to ask you - I mean, you talk about aging gracefully in this, in this episode, and you talk about how it's not a matter of... like, it's a matter of perspective, right? That you can look at these things and choose to look at it as like, "Oh, I'm being left behind," or as like, "Oh, wow, I'm a better, I'm a more whole person." How, in your opinion, and I know, it'll be different for each rapper but, how can rappers age gracefully? You know, like, how, how has a Jay-Z been able to maintain his longevity while not losing authenticity? You know, how can a rapper continue to get older but still be who they are as a musician?
Kris Hampton 33:56
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, you know, over the years. And I think Jay-Z is a really great example of it in real-time, because he's like, telling us "I'm done wearing oversized white tees." You know, and "Now I'm wearing button up shirts," you know? I think, I think just admitting that, you know, it doesn't have to be that you stopped wearing oversized white tees, but, but just admitting that things are changing, and, and you're seeing things in a different light, from a different perspective, is the key to it. You don't have to keep rapping about the things that 20 year old rappers are rapping about. And that's not saying that they are rapping about dumb shit. Some of them are - clearly - but, but that's what their life is. And that's fine. You know, I was wilding out when I was 20 as well, so, they should be too, you know. I can't fault them for that. But I'm not 20 anymore. So yeah, all of those rappers who you heard 15, 10-15 years ago saying, "I don't want to be a 50 year old rapper. 40, even. 40 year old rapper." They're all still rapping, you know, and they're all 47, 48, 50 years old. And they're still, they're still fucking great. It's just admitting it, it's just owning your truth, it's just sitting in it and being okay with it. I don't see a problem with it. Music in general can be made by - it doesn't have to be made by young people - it can... brilliant, beautiful music can be made by people who've lived a lot of life. And that's, that's okay for rappers to embrace.
Devin Dabney 35:48
Yeah. I'm, yeah, that's very well put because I've never understood why, why we think - I mean I understand why we think that way - but I don't understand why the, why more people don't see that, like rap is something that you can literally do until you die. Like, and I don't know why it's an art form that we relegate to younger people. There's not, I can't think of too many other art forms where we're like, oh, like, you're like, "Oh, he's too old to paint," or, like, you know what I mean? Like, we don't do that with them, but with rappers, it's like, "Oh, you're too old to rap." And actually, I think probably one of the earliest examples I can remember of someone not caring about their age as a rapper is Eminem, because he did when they did the "BET Shady 2.0 Cypher", the very last line, he says is, "I'mma rap until I'm fossil fuel." And it's just like, that was the first time that as a, I mean, I was 21 years old when I heard that, that I wasn't afraid of being an old rapper. Like, I was like, shit, like Eminem's, like "Nah, I'm not retiring. Like, what the fuck? Why would I retire?" And it kind of hit me like, yeah, why would you retire? Like, I mean, what, what's going to happen, you know? Like, you're not going to be a worse rapper as you get older. You're literally only going to get better. Because you're going to keep practicing. So yeah, I just, you just kind of reminded me of that moment, because I think that was the first time that I heard a rapper speak about aging positively.
Kris Hampton 37:21
Yeah, I think it comes down to, you know, something we talked a little about in the J. Cole episode and the Ski Mask episode - it requires you to embrace change. If you're stuck in the whatever style was popular when you first hit the scene, or when you first learned to do it, then the stuff you're making later is going to sound old. It's just going to. And some of that will be chalked up to 'classic,' some of it's just going to sound old. So if you're embracing the new things that are coming along, and in taking little parts of that and allowing the new things to influence you the same way the things that came before you did, then, you know, I don't think you're ever gonna go out of style.
Devin Dabney 38:14
Yeah, that's another good point, too. I think that, kind of hinting back to what you were saying, about getting old being a matter of perspective rather than like a thing that's forced upon you, I think that people that don't change at all in terms of their artistry are not growing as people. Because I don't rap about the same things I rapped about 15 years ago. But it's not necessarily that I was intentionally like, "Okay, you're no longer going to rap about this." It's just that my life has changed, and I have changed, and the things that I do have changed. So I just naturally am going to rap about different things. And that's another thing that I, that I love about some some artists that are like my favorite artists. That they don't, they're not stuck in one thing, like you don't have to do the same thing, every album. And you don't have to, you're not stuck with whatever you rapped about the first time you started rapping. I mean, like one of the greatest - and we might, I might have to do an episode on this - is Tyler the Creator. Like his journey from 2010 to now? Dude, like, it's like seven different people rapping, you know. Like, you would never think that the same person who produced "Call Me If You Get Lost" produced "Bastard", you know? Like two totally different albums, totally different subject, totally different feel. Like it, like, I mean, just, and those are the kinds of artists, I mean, and that's, those are the people that I call artists, you know? Like someone who is literally making art, you know? And art is time sensitive, like, it just is. So there's no getting around that and trying to avoid it. I think it's like trying to avoid getting old is what makes you old, and then just accepting that you're old, ironically, makes you not old. I don't know.
Kris Hampton 40:09
Yeah, absolutely. Owning who you are is so important. Have you ever seen Aesop Rock live?
Devin Dabney 40:16
God, no. I wish.
Kris Hampton 40:19
I've seen him live a handful of times. And he, he translates really well on stage. And, you know, he could very well try to be like, a more animated rapper on stage. He could jump around a lot and you know, try to be more exciting, but he doesn't. He, he sits in his like, Aesop Rock truth. And you can see, when he's performing, how uncomfortable it makes him to be onstage in front of all these people who know every word he's going to say. He raps with his eyes closed a lot of the time, like he's trying to...
Devin Dabney 41:01
Wow.
Kris Hampton 41:02
...you know, make sure he doesn't know he's there. And, and I think as a result of that, like of him really embodying these moments that he's talking about, he makes these outrageous faces while his eyes are closed. You know, it's very cool to watch and it, it matches his music so fucking well. It's clearly not his comfort zone. But he's, but he's really mastered it. And, and I love that and I think it's, I think it's part of why he's so good when he's in a group. Like when he's, when he's performing as "Hail Mary Mallon" with Rob Sonic, there's a very clear contrast between him and Rob Sonic, or between him and DJ Zone, where they're a little more animated and he's like, sitting in this really uncomfortable space, being himself. It's, it's very cool.
Devin Dabney 42:00
That's uh, I was going to ask you what he's like on stage because he, based on his interviews and the way he talks about himself in his songs, he does not seem like the most extroverted rapper. He seems like the Batman of hip hop. Like, he hides in a cave, he plans out everything, super intelligent, like has a plan to take down every rapper but doesn't do it, you know. Like he, that's how I picture Aesop Rock. And so yeah, I couldn't imagine him, it'd be so weird if he got out on stage and was like, jumping around like, like... uhhh... I don't know, who's an animated rapper?
Kris Hampton 42:38
Like Busta Rhymes.
Devin Dabney 42:39
Yeah, yeah, like, Busta Rhymes! Yeah, like if he were, he came out like that? It would be... Yeah, so I love hearing that, that he's true to himself on stage, which kind of tracks for the kind of artist that he's shown himself to be. And another thing that you brought up that I wanted to mention is Aesop Rock is like the best collaborator ever. Like he's done, he's done so many albums with somebody else. And he always, like, it always enhances him because... because his style is so unique and so polarizing, honestly, just, - I mean, like we talked about earlier - when you put him against a Rob Sonic, it like amplifies that even more, but it's like you're not getting as much of it as you want so it makes it more special to hear him come in for a couple of crazy-ass bars. Like yeah, like he comes in and it's like "Needlenose pliers and a paragon of level design." And then like Rob Sonic comes back in, like it's just enough Aesop Rock that you're like "Damn. Like, what he just said was talking bars. Like, that was dope."
Kris Hampton 43:45
Well, and I think he does it well as a, as like a guest verse and as a producer. Have you ever heard "Vigilante Genesis"?
Devin Dabney 43:55
No.
Kris Hampton 43:55
It's a project Aesop Rock produced...
Devin Dabney 43:59
Type that down...
Kris Hampton 43:59
...for Blueprint - Columbus, Ohio rapper, also affiliated with Rhymesayers, was on Aesop Rock's "Alchemy" - and Aesop produced this entire "Vigilante Genesis", which is a concept album story. I think you would like it. It's very comic book-ish feeling. It's very, very cool. You should check it out.
Devin Dabney 43:59
Man, yeah, that sounds right up my alley. I mean, concept albums in general are just my favorite, you know, and you saying that kind of reminds me of the feeling I get when I listened to like Deltron 3030 or something. Yeah.
Kris Hampton 44:41
Well, I think one of the things that makes Aesop Rock so good as a collaborator, especially when it's a concept album, or even if he's just guest versing; he's really good at continuing the story, or just telling a story, in general. I read an interview of him talking about he very purposely tried to get better at storytelling rap. And one of the ways he tried to do that for a while was by getting rid of the word "I" in all of his songs. And he would sort of talk about it in third person, like telling a story that he was seeing playing out in front of him. Whatever it was, he got really good at it. It's some of the best rap stories ever told, I think.
Devin Dabney 45:31
That's a really interesting way to make yourself better at storytelling. I guess I'm thinking of Atmosphere, because I mentioned them earlier, but one thing that Atmosphere does that I think is pretty unique is they, rather than replacing, taking out the "I", they replace it with "you". So a lot of times, it's like "you are doing this" or "you wake up here," like, it makes it... it literally puts you in the story that they're telling, because they're saying that you're the one doing this, or it's clear that like they're talking to somebody. Yeah, so that's a, huh, that's, that's a pretty smart way to, to change around how you rap.
Kris Hampton 46:09
Yeah. And, you know, I just think, I think the way he thinks is so interesting, and, and he brings that... the way he thinks in song form, I don't know how it works. I don't know how his stories that he's telling - and this album is full of them - I don't know how they originate in his brain, but it's brilliant. I know, half of this album was recorded, or conceptualized and written, when he was living in a barn out, you know, sort of in the middle of nowhere. So maybe that simplicity that shows up in this was sort of seeping in. That's totally me theorizing. But he was certainly spending a lot of time at that point sitting in his own thoughts and his own issues. And, and I think you hear it here in a really cool way.
Devin Dabney 46:59
Yeah, I mean, and a lot of it, which I think a lot of good music is done this way, but I mean, some of it is based off real experiences. I mean, apparently, this song we're talking about, "Lotta Years" was done about two real people. So yeah, I think just lived experience. And yeah, that sounds like a super unique situation. You know, as a rapper, one of the things, I feel like if you want to tell good stories, you have to do one of two things, or a mixture of them: 1) You either have to be, you have to be living an interesting life, like you have to be in situations that are not, quote unquote, normal or not mundane. Or you have to be so good at finding the beauty in the mundane that you can tell a story that is evocative about, about the most basic shit, which is kind of what Aesop Rock does. He does both, I think, but yeah. Just something, thinking about storytelling and how that works.
Kris Hampton 47:57
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons that a lot of people were saying it could never work for a 40, 50 year old to rap, was because what the fuck do they have to rap about? Well, actually, they have a lot more to rap about as long as they can look beneath the surface a little bit and see those lessons and, and interact with them in a way that can create a song, you know? And that I think that's what we're seeing here.
Devin Dabney 48:22
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just like, that's, I mean, I said it earlier, but that's why I never understood why we thought of it as a young man's game because... ideally, if you can, like as you get better, like, you need less interesting source material to write better songs, you know? Like you, because you're able like, your refinement process is better so you're just, you're able to see, you're able to take a drive to work and write a song about the drive to work that's just as good as like, your odyssey of building a multimillion dollar cocaine empire, as all rappers do. You know? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness.
Kris Hampton 49:10
Favorite bars for you on this album?
Devin Dabney 49:12
On the album? Oh, my God.
Kris Hampton 49:14
On the song. Sorry. I'd have to think for a while to come up with that.
Devin Dabney 49:20
My favorite part of this song, just because it sticks out the most, is the part where he's talking about the dreads. The woman that wears the dreads, and she, she can cut them off and, and reattach them whenever she wants. Just first of all, it's just because that's wild. But then the part I remember as a result, after it, is the like, "My mind's fucking blown. The future is amazing. I feel so fucking old." And then the hoverboard. Like, that whole section is my like, it just, it hits for me just because: 1) like, I mean - again, we talk about order - like the image of, of someone having like dreads that they grew and cut off and can put back on... like I was blown away. I was like, "People do that? What?" So I was right there with him when he was saying, "My mind's fucking blown. The future is amazing." Like that was me in that moment. So that part sticks out to me simply because of how it made me feel.
Kris Hampton 50:17
Yeah, there's a, there's a moment in that, like in those bars, that I think is really cool and I think it shows his like growth as a simpler rapper, partially. But it's just really good song writing. The lines are "Some lady orders Maca, compliments the locks. She asked how many years it took the girl to grow the crop. 'It took a lot of years and then eventually I cut them, kept them, reattach them anytime I want to." And, and then right after that there's this pause where he lets the track breathe a little bit. And it's like this little vibraphone sounding thing, that to me, sounds like a brain opening up to a new world, you know? It sounds like surprise. And then he says, "My mind's fucking blown. The future is amazing. I feel so fucking old." I fucking love it, man. But, but I'm with you. The, for me, the "I bet you clone your pets and ride a hoverboard to work," followed by "I used a folding map to find the juice place in the first." The contrast of those two, like, you clone your pets and ride a hoverboard, and I still have to unfold this fucking paper map to even get to the juice place, is brilliant.
Devin Dabney 51:38
Yeah. And I think also, like you said, just that that whole sequence is pretty lay-, done in layman's terms like it, isn't it? There is no, he does not use a word like 'chicanery' or 'hepatoma' or any of the other words I could throw out on a whim because of Aesop. But he still is telling a story in the same way that he told it, you know, 15 years prior, just with a little more refinement. And yeah, like, I mean, it's still evocative, and it still has a lot of depth to it, it's just communicated differently. And yeah, like, the classic - I don't know why I think of Jay-Z every time someone does this, but - when you let the track breathe, and like you say three words in a bar. I always think of Jay-Z because I think that's where I learned it from or first, like, like, like cognated it, is just like the, Oh shit, like he only said, you know, four words in the whole, like, measure, but it worked.
Kris Hampton 52:44
Yeah, and there's some song where he says, "Let the track breathe." And I can't, I don't remember what song it is. For some reason, I feel like it's a Swizz Beatz production, but I don't know if that's correct. It's somewhere out there. We should find that.
Devin Dabney 52:56
Yeah, yeah. Cuz that's, I mean, gosh. One thing that I that I'm excited to do with this show, just being a little fourthwall here, but one thing I'm excited to do is to, like, talk about the different skills that rappers taught us. You know, like, just because I can tell you a lot of things that I've learned as a rapper listening to rappers and just like, things that I've adapted or tried to improve because I noticed that one rapper... like, yeah, like Jay-Z, like, I learned, like, Oh, you don't need to cram every empty space with a syllable. You know, like, sometimes you don't need to go "Palms sweaty, Mom's spaghetti, already." Like, you don't have to do that. You can just say, "Tears on the mausoleum floor." And that's it.
Devin Dabney 53:08
Totally. I just feel like the the illustration of getting old that he, that he shows us, it feels so relatable. Because there are a lot of moments where I'm like, watching somebody younger experience something and it just makes me smile, you know? And I feel like that's what he's doing here.
Devin Dabney 54:07
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that the reason why I love this episode from you so much is because it resonates a lot with me and what I think about getting older, in the sense that it doesn't have to be - and it shouldn't be - this bad thing. And that we, you, have the ability to reframe what that means for you. And, and to me, I've chosen to believe that older means like wiser, smarter, more adept, and just more capable of being the best version of yourself, you know? And that's a lot of what I got from this episode and, and yeah, I just appreciated hearing you kind of reaffirm that for me.
Kris Hampton 54:52
Good. I'm choosing to believe those things as well.
Devin Dabney 54:55
Yeah, because otherwise I might as well just like bury myself in the ground with the rest of the fossil fuel, you know? Like, what other alternatives do you have to survive? Yeah.
Kris Hampton 55:08
Alright. If you are watching this on YouTube or listening to it anywhere but Spotify, you're missing half the podcast. Every other week we release short, focused essays set to beats, those are the Lessons episodes, followed by the full song that we're learning that lesson from. Those episodes are only available on Spotify. But we've got all the links, the videos, more bonus material, at the blog post for these episodes at hiphoptaughtmeeverything.com . Go check that out. Go down the rabbit holes. I promise you, it is, it's so much fucking fun. It will take up a lot of your time, but it's alot of fucking fun.
Devin Dabney 55:47
Time well spent.
Kris Hampton 55:48
Yes. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter. And we'll see you next time when an unlikely Midwestern rap collective teaches me family.