Liner Notes | Ms. Lauryn Hill’s “Lost Ones”
Artist: Ms. Lauryn Hill
Song: Lost Ones
Producers: Ms. Lauryn Hill and Vada Nobles
Album: The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill
Label: Ruffhouse/Columbia Records
Release Date: August 25, 1998
What is the greatest diss track of all time?
Kris: “The Sauce” by Eminem
Devin: “Dollaz + Sense” by DJ Quik
What are your favorite bars from “Lost Ones”?
Kris:
It’s funny how money change a situation.
Miscommunication lead to complication.
My emancipation don’t fit your equation.
I was on the humble, you on every station.
Devin:
I know all the tricks from Bricks to Kingston.
Links/Videos mentioned in this episode:
Watch Kris and Devin’s live recording of this episode on YouTube:
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Devin Dabney 00:08
I'm Devin Dabney.
Kris Hampton 00:10
I'm Kris Hampton.
Devin Dabney 00:10
And this is how… Hip Hop Taught Me Everything.
Kris Hampton 00:21
Alright, first off, if you have not listened to this week's Lessons episode, "Ms. Lauryn Hill Taught Me Confidence", go do that now. And because it's a Music + Talk podcast, it's only available on Spotify. With Spotify Premium, you'll get the full experience, which is listening to the full song, in this case, "Lost Ones" immediately after the episode. And I won't do this every time. But if you want to get a taste of what those Lessons episodes are like, minus the song, stick around after this Liner Notes episode, and I'll drop it at the very end so you can check it out. Now, before we get into these liner notes, you know I have a question for you already, but now I have a surprise pop question.
Devin Dabney 01:07
Ah, hell.
Kris Hampton 01:12
I've been listening to diss tracks and battle raps all morning. So I'm, yeah, there are two types of hip hop fans. You have to choose a side. You can't, you can't be wishy washy on this. And on this episode, you get no explanation - just a one word answer. Alright, you ready?
Devin Dabney 01:35
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 01:37
Ether or Takeover?
Devin Dabney 01:40
Ether.
Kris Hampton 01:42
I'm a Takeover guy, so...alright. That's all there is.
Devin Dabney 01:46
I like your setup. You're like "you're not allowed to explain, if anybody says anything, if any cancellation premacy like are on the horizon, you have to deal." Yeah.
Kris Hampton 01:56
Yeah, man.
Devin Dabney 01:57
Given that, just Ether's all I'm gonna say.
Kris Hampton 02:00
Alright. Okay, then, real question: What is the best diss track of all time?
Devin Dabney 02:08
Um, can I say what my favorite diss track is instead of the best?
Kris Hampton 02:12
You can.
Devin Dabney 02:12
Okay, cause it's it's like impossible to pick.
Kris Hampton 02:15
It's so hard.
Devin Dabney 02:16
Yeah. Oh, so like before I say my favorite, an honorable mention goes to "No Vaseline" because that was like almost the one I picked. Yeah, it's pretty it's pretty awesome. But the one that I'm picking is "Dollaz + Sense" by DJ Quik.
Kris Hampton 02:32
Oh, dang. Well...
Devin Dabney 02:34
Because because for one, like if you it's it's like a good song by itself. Like even if you didn't know it was a diss, it's just a good song. And actually, I think it's his most played song on Spotify. The second reason is like I think it has everything about a good diss track that it should but it also has like one of my favorite lines that's a diss, ever, like for those that don't know, DJ Quik and MCA had probably one of the longest beefs in hip hop history ever. And so the song was kind of a combination of that like years-long beef and MCA spells his name E-I-H-T and there's this line where DJ Quik says, "E-I-H-T, should I continue? Yeah, you left out the G cuz the G ain't in you." And like, there's nothing you can do about that. You can't change your name. You can't like...
Kris Hampton 03:27
You did it yourself.
Devin Dabney 03:29
Yeah, you did it to yourself. You played yourself. In the words of the late great DJ Khaled. Yeah, so that's, that's why I picked that one. It's such a good track.
Kris Hampton 03:38
It's so good. Damn, yeah, that's a good one. I didn't even have that one in my honorable mentions. I had "No Vaseline" as an honorable mention. And I listened to that this morning. And I just I mean, A) it's Ice Cube versus NWA. But I love his excitement when he starts it off with the "Goddamn, I'm glad y'all set it off."
Devin Dabney 04:04
Yeahhhh.
Kris Hampton 04:06
Like, alright. Here we are.
Devin Dabney 04:08
Exactly.
Kris Hampton 04:09
I also had "The Bridge Is Over" as an honorable mention, which is KRS ONE versus Marley Marl and MC Shan about the origins of hip hop. Mm hmm. And my winner goes to a song which is not on Spotify, but I will link the YouTube video in the show notes. I'll have links to all these other songs as well. That's Eminem's "The Sauce" and it's a, it was like a mixtape, I think it came out on a Green Lantern mixtape. It was Eminem versus Benzino and The Source magazine. Benzino is a clown. So going at him isn't particularly impressive, really. And I think Em knew that, so he went at the whole Source magazine which was, at the time, the Bible for hip hop. Yeah, it seemed seemed huge that he would go at them. And he murders them. I mean, he did it to Cannabis. He did it Ja Rule, man. So The Source magazine I never bought another Source magazine after this song came out.
Devin Dabney 05:23
I'm uhhh, it's funny that you mentioned the Eminem Benzino beef because I just saw on that Instagram account @onthisdateinhiphop that Benzino basically, like, apologized to Eminem, like, four days ago.
Kris Hampton 05:38
I know. That is hilarious to me that that just came out. And, you know, I had this in there before I saw that, but it cracks me up.
Devin Dabney 05:48
The universe is watching us, I swear. Yeah, that's, I mean, just like the coincidences like that, that keep happening. Because yeah, I hadn't even thought about, first of all, Benzino in god knows how long and second of all, just like their... Yeah, like, just where did that come from? You know?
Kris Hampton 06:05
Yeah, amazing. While we're on the topic of diss songs, though, I have to say this, to get this episode started. In 2003, Ms. Lauryn Hill did a Christmas benefit concert at the Vatican. And during the concert, in front of 7,500 people, I imagined all Catholics, she accused the Catholic Church of corruption, exploitation, and abuses. In the middle of a concert, she just stops and makes these accusations, so...
Devin Dabney 06:44
Oh, man.
Kris Hampton 06:46
That made, that might make Lauryn Hill the GOAT rapper of all, GOAT battle rapper of all time. Yeah.
Devin Dabney 06:53
Period, the, the real life version of "Anyway, here's Wonderwall."
Kris Hampton 07:00
Exactly, exactly.
Devin Dabney 07:03
Oh my God, dude. She, like, one thing about her, like, just throughout her career is like, she has always been, like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I'm gonna say what I want. I'm gonna do what I want. I am who I am. I ain't got no time for no misunderstandings again, like... she's, yeah, she's a she's definitely one of the most confident people I know. And just, like, unafraid, you know, to say what she thinks.
Kris Hampton 07:29
Yeah, she's our generation's Nina Simone.
Devin Dabney 07:31
Uh huh. That's good, I'd never really thought of that.
Kris Hampton 07:35
Stands up, unapologetically herself, and doesn't give a fuck.
Devin Dabney 07:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's... Yeah. And just like, I think that it means that much more to me, just because she is a woman in the hip hop world. And like, you know, women already play life on hardmode anyway, but being an emcee. And being a woman in hip hop, and then being confident on top of it, it's like, I mean, we will probably talk about this in this conversation, but it's just probably, just makes a lot of men in hip hop, just, like just can't take it, you know what I mean? Like, just what the? Who gives you the right, you know?
Kris Hampton 08:15
Yeah, and I, you know, that, we can sort of jump right into the liner notes with that, in the beginning of Lauryn's solo career, Wyclef did not support her solo career. He was just like, "No, you're a Fugee. And that's that." He ended up trying, you know, asking her "Can I produce some of your album?" And she just said no. But in the beginning, he didn't support it.
Devin Dabney 08:43
Yeah, that's an actually... you know, if you like watch or I guess read some of the things she said about why we never got another like solo album from her, one of the main things she says is lack of support. Which really makes me like, it should make the whole hip hop world, sad that like, we could have an artist that talented, you know, not feel supported enough to to use her talent basically, or to like, do what she loves to do. I mean, yeah, just and that... so what you just said about Wyclef kind of just fits the bill there.
Kris Hampton 09:21
Yeah. Curious: have you ever read or heard any of the controversy surrounding the the credit for this album?
Devin Dabney 09:32
That that that was kind of what was on my mind. Sorry, I'll let you explain. Yeah.
Kris Hampton 09:37
Robert Glasper, great jazz musician, has played for you know on a lot of Kendrick's stuff, that might be where most people would recognize him from if they're not familiar with him already. Piano player. He, in an interview, I think on a Houston radio station pretty much aired it out that Lauren had had not credited any of the musicians who created "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill," who played the songs, made the beats. And, and she, she actually did get sued by the producer of this song, Vada Nobles, who wanted his credit. And on the initial liner notes for this album, she was, she took 100% credit for the writing and arranging - didn't credit any other musicians. They sued her, she settled out of court. And she has since said that she was young and naive, and would do it all differently. Of course, that's not going to stop rumor and speculation. But yeah, you know, there is the maybe she didn't make another album, because everybody in the industry knew what had happened to these musicians. So there is that, that thought, you know...
Devin Dabney 10:58
Yeah, well, and that's, it's tough because like, I'm, I'm hesitant to say that, like, she wasn't largely responsible for that album. I'm sure that as a young, I mean, like we just talked about, she's very confident and very, like, "This is mine. This is like, this is my thing." And so I'm sure that there was a little bit of like, I want to take ownership of this, but... Well, I guess what I don't like about that is that they try to make it seem like she couldn't do anything without them.
Kris Hampton 11:30
Right. I agree.
Devin Dabney 11:30
Like I read. I read the like, I think it might have been that same interview with Robert Glasper, where he was like, she couldn't even tune her guitar. And I'm like, Yeah, I highly doubt that is the case. I mean, maybe maybe, I don't know I wasn't in the room, but it just like, I guess I'm.. there's two things: 1) obviously, they're doing it because the album became what it was. If that album had sold 10,000 copies, I don't think they would have been that upset about it. It's kind of like the betting thing we talked about in the last Liner Notes. But then also just like, I mean, like, I don't know if it's because she's a woman or because of like the credit thing, but they immediately went for her credibility as an artist of like, she's not even a musician, you know, like, she can't even play the guitar and... yeah, I don't know. It's, it's disheartening to think that that's what happened. But you know, people make mistakes, doesn't mean that she's not a great rapper.
Kris Hampton 12:26
Yeah, I mean, she's obviously fucking brilliant. The the album is incredible. The song is fucking incredible. You know, so I am taking nothing away from her. And if you watch the interview, there's a video of it, it's hilarious how uncomfortable the host of the interview is when Robert Glasper starts going in on Lauryn Hill. He keeps trying to shut it down, like, "Yeah... okay... let's, let's move on now."
Devin Dabney 12:57
And another thing! And another thing! I'm not done yet. Yeah. Like, it's just, I mean, see yeah, and that just like, I don't know, music is emotionally charged anyway, so I could see getting upset about it. But I just want, I would love to know what actually happened. I'm sure that she was like, not down with crediting a bunch of people because she wanted it to seem like her album. I mean, I don't know,
Kris Hampton 13:22
And she was young, you know?
Devin Dabney 13:22
Music is just so weird. And she was young, so probably was afraid of getting taken advantage of and just like, you know, not getting money for her music like most musicians do. It's all of that stuff.
Kris Hampton 13:33
It's a cutthroat business. And, you know, all of the like, production and writing credits that people get are kind of confusing. So if you're caught up in this superstardom of, you know, going from selling almost nothing to being a member of the Fugees you know, one of the biggest selling albums of all time. Yeah, then you may not really know the business. There are people handling that shit for you, you know, so yeah, her saying she was naive and would do it differently could absolutely be the truth.
Devin Dabney 14:10
Yeah. How old was she when this album was like, written? Recorded? Like,
Kris Hampton 14:15
Young, young 20's.
Devin Dabney 14:16
Yeah, she couldn't. I was like, she couldn't have been 30 yet. There's no way, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if I could handle that responsibility. At that age. I was still trying to figure out day to day stuff at early 20's. Much less the music business, which is still pretty confusing, anyway.
Kris Hampton 14:34
Yeah, totally. I think she was 23. I think that's, I think that's how old she was.
Devin Dabney 14:39
Yeah, that sounds... and like you said, just the, the quickness with which they accelerated to stardom. You know, like it's probably like one minute you're here and the next it's like all these papers are being signed and stuff's being thrown around and money's being dealt with and you don't know where it's at. Yeah, that, I would, I would do the same thing. I'm like, No, this is mine. This is my album. Like everyone stay away, but I don't know, it's tough.
Kris Hampton 15:07
Yep, yep, totally. I got a few things here. There's there's one thing I want to talk quite a bit about, but a couple of quick notes. Liner notes, if you will, about the song. First off, in the Lessons episode, I make a mention to MC Lyte saying that this is "the most beautifulest diss record ever recorded." And MC Lyte, also amazing female rapper, pre-Lauryn a little bit, who also had one of the best diss songs in my opinion, "10% Diss". Amazing, the way it starts out is also great. So if you haven't listened to that it'll be linked right here in the show notes. That quote from MC Lyte was from a really great podcast called "The Black Girl Songbook". It's by Danyel Smith and Chapter Six of "The Black Girl Songbook" was about this song. And it featured Angela Yee and MC Lyte. So that link is in the show notes, go check it out. It's it's amazing and you should listen to her whole podcast while you're at it.
Devin Dabney 16:19
Who was MC Lyte dissing?
Kris Hampton 16:22
You know what, I wish I could answer that question.
Devin Dabney 16:26
Well, I guess it worked.
Kris Hampton 16:31
Umm, see in my head now I'm trying to say Roxanne Shante. But I don't think that's correct. Mm hmm. I'll have to get back to you on that.
Devin Dabney 16:38
Well, I mean my, I said apparently it worked because I was like who did... wait, she had a beef? Like just erased from, like Thanos type shit like didn't even exist, you know what I mean? Like I didn't remember her having a beef. Oh shoot.
Kris Hampton 16:56
Other other little quick side note here, in the section about Lauryn's second time at the Apollo with the Fugees, the beat that plays when they win the crowd back, if you're listening to the Lessons episode, is "The Bridge Is Over". Which I mentioned at the top of the episode here. Another diss song, could easily be ranked best of all time. Basically ended the career of MC Shan but but also another ironic little connection there is that the drums from this song "Lost Ones" is from, they are from a BDP song "Super Hoe". So ah, that was an interesting little connection between BDP and Lauryn Hill.
Devin Dabney 17:47
Is is it like the same? I mean, the beat for this song "Lost Ones" is pretty simple. Is it just like the same drum break happening over and over again? Or? I wouldn't have...
Kris Hampton 17:59
"Super Hoe" is from "Criminal Minded". I think it's like 1987 or '89 or something, like that album. And yeah, "Criminal Minded" or "Super Hoe" is all drums. I don't think there's a single instrument on it other than KRS ONE's voice. Yeah. And there it's a bunch of different drum breaks, looped and chopped in different ways. And I think these drums are just taken chopped up and put into this pattern, but they're the same drums. I think that's the case.
Devin Dabney 18:37
"Criminal Minded" is the one where he's doing the Malcolm X pose, right? Like he's leaning out the window and he's got the the machine pistol like is it that album?
Kris Hampton 18:47
Yep, I think so.
Devin Dabney 18:48
Okay. Yeah, I was like, that's the one that has "My Philosophy" on it, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Okay. I was just, sorry, I was just trying to piece it together in my head.
Kris Hampton 18:59
Yeah, the big thing I want to talk about before we move on is... the, so the album starts with a skit of, it's a roll call at school. And we hear a teacher calling out names. He calls Lauryn's name. Lauryn is nowhere to be found, you know. And then at the end of this song, we hear that same teacher talking to his students about love. And that that voice that teacher is Ras Baraka, he's a poet and activist. He grew up with Lauryn in Newark, New Jersey, and eventually became - and still is - the mayor of Newark, New Jersey. And Lauryn executive produced a documentary about his family. His dad is also a poet and activist. His whole family are activists. The documentary is titled "Why Is We Americans?" and it's not yet online, but the trailer is and the trailer is fucking incredible. So...
Devin Dabney 20:11
Man, I feel like whenever we talk, it's like mostly you telling me things that I didn't know. And then I'm over here like, he said, "You left out the G cuz the G ain't in you."
Kris Hampton 20:25
I didn't know. I didn't know this until I went looking like to find out who that teacher was.
Devin Dabney 20:30
Okay, I was like, damn. You were like...
Kris Hampton 20:33
No, I had, I had no idea about any of this. And he, I read an interview with him. And he said that Lauryn just called him and was like, come over to the house, I want you to do something. And he shows up at the house. And there're like a dozen kids sitting in her living room. And there's a chalkboard set up. And he's like, What the hell's going on? And she like, gave him the basic concept. It wasn't scripted at all. And he just went into teacher mode. He actually was a teacher at the time.
Devin Dabney 21:07
Oh wow.
Kris Hampton 21:08
It's all on the fly. It was done in one take.
Devin Dabney 21:11
That's rad.
Kris Hampton 21:12
And it's just it's fucking brilliant.
Devin Dabney 21:15
That's super cool. You know, I never really thought about how that skit was recorded. And that's really cool. Huh.
Kris Hampton 21:23
Yeah, I hadn't really either until I, you know, did this Lessons episode and, and just hearing that that part it sounded so genuine, him talking to the kids and the kids responding with, you know, songs about love and everybody laughing... It sounded so, so genuine. Like it was actually happening. And I'm like, how did she get this audio? Who is this?
Devin Dabney 21:45
Yeah, I don't know, I guess in my head, I think all of it is, not all of it is fake, but, it's all recorded, obviously. So it's not, it can't be totally on the fly. So in my head, it was just like, a bunch of kids in like the booth and then like, "Alright, kid number four, like you're on!" You know what I mean? Like, that makes it a lot better.
Kris Hampton 22:04
Yeah, it was all done live him just ad-libbing it on the fly. And it's it's so good.
Devin Dabney 22:12
Man. How many, I was trying to think about this, how many times do you think you've listened to that album? Like, just because, I literally, it's like, I can actually say it's too many times. Like, I can't, I've lost count because it was playing when I was a baby. So like, it's actually probably one of the first albums I remember hearing constantly. Because my, my mom would play that album a lot. So I don't even know how many times I've heard it. Probably more than I think.
Kris Hampton 22:43
Yeah, yeah. Wow, that's cool. That your, your parents were listening to it while you were like, two or three?
Devin Dabney 22:52
Yeah, like maybe. Yeah.
Kris Hampton 22:55
For me, it was post high school. And I was a huge Fugees fan. I mean, "The Score" was, was like mind blowing. And, you know, whether... I think I speak for everybody else on earth, when I say this:
Devin Dabney 23:18
Oh, man!
Kris Hampton 23:19
Lauryn was the best part of "The Score".
Devin Dabney 23:24
Oh, yeah. Okay,
Kris Hampton 23:25
She was so fucking good. And, and I was looking forward to "Miseducation", you know, knowing that it was happening. And the minute it came out, I mean, I must have played it 10,000 times in the first couple of months after it came out. So...
Devin Dabney 23:43
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, that this is a funny thing, just like, of my experience of it versus yours is like the generational divide. Like, in my mind, I knew who Lauryn Hill was before; I knew that she was a member of the Fugees. And it probably took me like, I don't know, I was probably maybe a teenager, honestly, before I realized, like, oh. Like, was the Fugees like Lauryn Hill's band? Like, did she get them together? So, um, but yeah. I've always, I always knew her as, I mean, that my first exposure to her was her solo album. So I just, yeah, I just totally, I got a different experience of it. And whereas I think what's cool about yours, though, is that you got to watch her, like, mature and you got to anticipate the album. Where I was just, like, kind of born into it and was like... I mean, obviously, it influenced a lot of my music taste now, but just, yeah. I was like, this is just music. This is what you know, Lauryn Hill, she's a rapper, you know?
Kris Hampton 24:43
Yeah. Did you ever see "Sister Act Two"?
Devin Dabney 24:46
I've seen I think all of them at least once. I can't remember which one Two is though.
Kris Hampton 24:52
It's the one with Lauryn Hill.
Devin Dabney 24:54
Lauryn Hill was in "Sister Act Two"?
Kris Hampton 24:56
Yeah. She sings "Joyful, Joyful". Okay, I think I think with Tevin Campbell. I think he is in it as well.
Devin Dabney 25:03
Okay. Gosh, I mean, how many people listening to this are gonna know... if you're black you probably know who Tevin Campbell is. I mean, he was on "The Goofy Movie" soundtrack, which was probably the first black Disney movie ever. Not probably, definitely.
Kris Hampton 25:27
I had no idea. I'm gonna have to go listen to "The Goofy Movie" soundtrack now.
Devin Dabney 25:32
He, I'm pretty sure he's... have you seen that movie?
Kris Hampton 25:36
I don't think so.
Devin Dabney 25:36
I'm like, wait. Dude, it's so good. But he's, he's in it. He sings I think a couple of the songs, I actually think he's one of the main characters in the movie. I won't spoil it for you. I'll just let you watch. Dang, I gotta watch. I gotta watch "Sister Act Two" now. I don't remember. I don't remember either of them being in that movie.
Kris Hampton 26:01
Oh, yeah, she... There, there's a moment where she's singing in the movie that gives me chills every single fucking time I watch it. So,
Devin Dabney 26:09
Man.
Kris Hampton 26:10
Go do it. Watch it right now.
Devin Dabney 26:12
Heck, yeah. Alright, well, let's sign off.
Kris Hampton 26:16
How does this song make you feel? So, less about what was you know, what happened when, in the making of the song? Yeah, all of that. How does it make you feel?
Devin Dabney 26:30
You know, the funny thing is like, this song. I mean, I know it's a diss song because of what it says. But the like emotions or like feeling I get when I hear it is not, like, it doesn't feel like a diss track. It actually just makes me think of like, I'm like strolling around and like those like parks in the 90s where like Mos Def would come to... it makes me feel like I'm watching someone freestyle, basically.
Kris Hampton 26:58
Yeah. Feels like a cypher on the block.
Devin Dabney 27:00
Exactly. That's it. Like it's like a bunch of backpackers that are around some fountain and like, there's some dude with turntables that's spinning the same drum break and just letting people rap. I mean, just like, it's, it kind of sounds like a freestyle, the way it's written. And then also, just like, the repetitive nature of some of the parts makes it feel like a freestyle. So yeah, yeah, that's definitely the feeling I get is like, I'm just being transported back to the the like, era where emcees would roam the land and cut each other down. You know, like the mythical, like, knights of the microphone era, you know?
Kris Hampton 27:40
Yeah. Yeah, it makes me feel the same way that like some Wu Tang and Tribe songs. do where it feels like the 90s. It feels like it came straight off the block. You know, it feels like hip hop is still this thing that's just coming into its own power. And it's just fucking beautiful. "The most beautifulest," as MC Lyte would say.
Devin Dabney 28:11
Yeah. Yeah, it's it is really interesting to think I mean, cause even as I think through the other diss songs that I was like, debating on, you know, in terms of which one would be my favorite, and it's all pretty clear that they, that they're, like, pretty angry, you know, like, just slashing character and just, even the feel of the song just feels like it, but this is just like a kind of, just like a walk in the park, really. Yeah, I don't know.
Kris Hampton 28:42
Yeah. In fact, in "The Black Girl Songbook" episode with MC Lyte, Danyel Smith asks MC Lyte about "Lost Ones" as a diss song. And MC Lyte initially is like, "Is that a diss song? I don't even think of it as a diss song. Damn, it's the most beautifulest diss song ever recorded." Yeah.
Devin Dabney 29:07
Yeah, I mean,
Kris Hampton 29:08
It's just a really fucking great song. Yeah, often often included on Best Hip Hop Songs of All Time lists. Yeah. So besides the fact that it's a diss song, it's just a fucking great song. It feels so good.
Devin Dabney 29:24
Yeah, I mean, I think that the fact that it doesn't feel like a diss song, that it's just a good song on its own... in my opinion, that is part of what makes a good diss song, right, is like, I mean, the biggest diss that you can give someone in my mind is just being your best self in spite of what people try to do to you. So that's why I think like, I mean, that's why I picked that DJ Quik song, because that's like his most popular song. Yeah, and it's not even, it is a diss song but like, it just, it's also his best song. Well, you know best if you want to count it by plays. And yeah, to me, that's like the best like... I think, you know, in terms of hip hop - obviously, the best thing you can do is like ignore people that talk shit about you - but hip hop is a shit talking game. So, I think, yeah, I just think the best diss that you can do is like make your diss song so good that everyone else is saying, is like singing along and talking shit about your, your opponent, you know? Vicariously.
Kris Hampton 30:30
Absolutely, and that's actually why I didn't include "Hit 'Em Up" as in my like best diss songs and honorable mentions is because if "Hit 'Em Up" was all just Tupac, it might be a really great song. But yeah, Tupac'ss first verse is like venom and it's great. But then the song kind of falls off, in my opinion.
Devin Dabney 30:56
Yeah, yeah, because he tried to turn it into like a posse cut and it's like wait, is this a diss song? Well, I mean they all diss, you know, Bad Boy Records but I don't know, it just...
Kris Hampton 31:07
But could you tell me any lines from the rest of the song after Tupac?
Devin Dabney 31:13
I actually, I remember one: "I'm from any-w Jers, we're planning murders occur," because I like that, like, little rhyme scheme but that's like literally the first line other than Tupac's, I think that's... Yeah, I don't remember it really any other, actually you know? I remember everyone's first line on that song and then after that it kind of fades away. But yeah, like I agree with you. I think that that song for some reason, I thought about it, but it wasn't even like close to being my favorite diss track just because like I think it just gets muddled and you know like Tupac can be a little much sometimes when he gets mad. In a good way, sometimes, but I felt like that, like he, I mean, like... the end of the song? He is just like, wiling out of it. But I kind of love it, too, at the same time. But yeah, I don't know. I think that like, that's, I agree with you. I think that song just kind of got muddled and couldn't decide if you wanted it to be a posse cut or like if you wanted to diss Bad Boy or if you wanted to diss Biggie and yeah...
Kris Hampton 32:21
Mm hmm. You know what else this song does for me? I always, every single time I listen to this song, since I realized it was a diss to Wyclef, there's a moment in "Zealots" from "The Score", where Wyclef raps: "The magazine says the girl should have went solo, the guys should stop rapping, vanish like Menudo." And...
Devin Dabney 32:49
I didn't notice that.
Kris Hampton 32:50
...and I'm like, wow, that was on some premonition shit. Uh, you you were predicting your own demise. Basically.
Devin Dabney 32:58
Yes. How the turntables, you know,
Kris Hampton 33:03
Yeah. It makes me think of that every single time I listen to the song. I think back to "The Score", I think back to them already recognizing, because, I mean magazines had said it, I think it was Vibe magazine, that Lauryn is the superstar. The guys could disappear. It could just be Lauryn.
Devin Dabney 33:23
Dude, I, I wonder how much of... well, I don't wonder - I'm sure, how much of him not wanting her to break off was just knowing that "Damn, like, she's better than us." And like being low-key salty about the fact that uh, that yeah, like, there's just, there's nothing you can do. Like, when somebody is just like, I mean, some people are just like, really special musicians. I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure just like performing with her and just watching her grow like, I don't know. I could I could see, I could see how he would not want her to leave because then it would just be... Yeah, I mean,
Kris Hampton 34:04
A bad career move to let her go, you know?
Devin Dabney 34:06
Right, and to be fair, like his career did not like completely disintegrate without her because he also is a really good fucking musician. But yeah, she's just like a cut above, you know? And it's really too bad that hip hop didn't get another like studio album from her because I mean, she did like a live album but we're never gonna, we're never gonna get you know, the graduation of Lauryn, the Mis-graduation of Lauryn Hill or whatever.
Kris Hampton 34:40
Yeah, sadly, it's not gonna happen. She does occasionally put songs on her SoundCloud.
Devin Dabney 34:47
Does she really?
Kris Hampton 34:48
Yeah. Occasionally songs pop up on her SoundCloud which is really fun to go find, you know?
Devin Dabney 34:57
Yeah. Gosh. Yeah, I didn't realize people were still using SoundCloud.
Kris Hampton 35:01
I think it's just Lauryn!
Devin Dabney 35:03
Yeah, yeah, I'm like it, I don't even think SoundCloud rappers use SoundCloud anymore and I think "SoundCloud rapper" is really just a moniker at this point. It's not, it doesn't mean... yeah, that's that's really funny. Well, maybe I'll get back, we'll start up SoundCloud again. Geez, you know, I, you... what you said earlier about like not realizing this was a diss track and honestly I didn't either until, you know, a few months ago when you brought it up. It's... how did you, how did you figure out it was a diss track? Because there's some songs like this where I just didn't know until I like went on Genius or something and looked at it and like, "this is, this is aimed at blah, blah," and I'm like what? Hold on?
Kris Hampton 35:53
Yeah, I think it was partly, you know, putting two and two together - like there was some news at the time of of like their split and that it was a bad split, that they were not amicable at all. And there were rumors flying around about that. And then you know, if you, once you start learning the lyrics to the song, like I played the album so many times that I knew damn near every lyric on the album, you start questioning things like, you know, she's obviously speaking to someone when she's saying things like "My emancipation don't fit your equation, I was on the humble, you on every station." Yeah, that's she's talking to somebody. And at first it can seem like it's, like maybe she's talking to the music industry, you know, "my emancipation don't fit your equation." But, but then the more you listen, the more personal it gets. And yeah, you start putting two and two together and you're like, I wonder if this is aimed at Wyclef.
Devin Dabney 37:00
Yeah. Yeah, that's a, that's a good point. Yeah, I mean, it is, like you said, some of it could just be like, oh, you're just talking to like a, like an imaginary "you" you know, like, you're just writing in the second person but, yeah, that's...
Kris Hampton 37:15
And it's still speculation to some degree.
Devin Dabney 37:17
Like yeah, she doesn't say,
Kris Hampton 37:19
She's never confirmed it.
Devin Dabney 37:20
So it's, uh, you know, what it reminds me of actually? Another diss song that I didn't realize was a diss song is a "Long Kiss Goodnight" by Biggie. It's one of those where again, like I just didn't think about it but then like when someone was like, this is talking about Tupac, like every... it all like came together like "The Matrix" and like, oh my god "laugh now, cry later", the dungarees! Like like it just blew my mind but he never says Tupac, you know?
Kris Hampton 37:50
That's something I miss about battle rap in general, like I think, I think what the battle rappers nowadays are doing the like acapella, you know, face-to-face battles with... I mean, their bars are crazy. Yeah, it's entertaining to listen to. But for me the diss tracks the battle raps, that are the the most important are the ones that are also good songs. Released on albums. You know, I for me that shit is is amazing.
Devin Dabney 38:29
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it just goes back to like the the idea of like iron sharpens iron and like, it should be a testament to your growth and your success. Like I this is like, how much more can I prove that I'm better than you? Other than like making a song that's like talking about how trash you are? And then that song becomes super popular? Yeah, yeah. It's uh, yeah, I don't know. I think like you said, I really enjoy watching, like, the battle rap, like modern battle rap where people are, you know, it's just like the most insanely like, complex and like good lyrics, but it's just yeah, I don't know. I think music is you know, I guess like...
Kris Hampton 39:14
They're different things.
Devin Dabney 39:16
Yeah, yeah. It's just a different...
Kris Hampton 39:17
Making music and making a good battle rap are radically different things.
Devin Dabney 39:22
Yeah, yeah. And like having and I guess this is something that I learned, had to learn, later is that like, just because you are the best rapper does not mean that you're going to be the most, like, successful musician. And just because you're like, a good musician, doesn't mean you'll be successful anyway, but but do you get what I'm saying? Like just because you have like, insane talent in terms of being able to rap or sing or whatever, doesn't mean that you can make good music necessarily.
Kris Hampton 39:52
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the one of the best freestyle battle rappers in the history of hip hop is Supernatural, you know, I don't know any Supernatural songs.
Devin Dabney 40:04
Yeah. Yeah. And and like, another person I think of which isn't quite on the extreme of that is someone like Cassidy. Like, where Cassidy's like, he would he would destroy emcees but he wasn't necessarily like a commercially successful rapper and I don't know if that's what he wanted or not, but I'm just using that as an example. He was a great battle rapper and a great... he had some like good diss tracks, and just like, you know, was a competitor and just you know, wasn't the most like popular musician.
Kris Hampton 40:37
Yep, just different things. And Lauryn happened to have it all.
Devin Dabney 40:41
Yeah, yeah, we don't.,... You don't really get... I mean, yeah, you just don't really get that very often. So yeah, I could imagine Wyclef would be pretty annoyed! Being in the same group with her and then like, wanting to, wanting to be the superstar but also knowing that if you leave, then that's a big part of this group.
Kris Hampton 41:03
Yeah.
Devin Dabney 41:04
You know, I'm curious. I mean, obviously, you talk a lot in the Lesson episode of like, just the things that this song helped you learn about what it means to be confident. For the people listening now, like, what lessons about confidence or self-assuredness do you think are the most important to get from Lauryn Hill - just in general?
Kris Hampton 41:30
Oh, man, I think believing in yourself is, is number one, you know? I mean, she had... there were some role models for her, in terms of going solo, there were MC Lytes, there were Queen Latifahs, you know? So there were people, there were women who had done this, that she could stand on the shoulders of, there were Nina Simone's, who were standing up for what they believed in no matter what. And I think that's, that also not just believing in yourself, but finding the conduit from other people to allow you to believe in yourself is so important. And yeah, I know I, you know, to move this, kind of, into our favorite bars, one of my favorites is how she starts the song: "It's funny how money change a situation. Miscommunication lead to complication. My emancipation don't fit your equation. I was on the humble, you on every station." And when I was 16, I tried to become emancipated from my mom and my stepdad - legally emancipated -because I was already living on my own. And my mom wouldn't sign the papers. So eight years later, or whatever, this resonated with me because she was becoming emancipated from Wyclef. And the Fugees. And, and they didn't want her to, or at least Wyclef didn't want her to. Yeah. So being able to look at her doing her own thing and believing in herself so fucking strongly and making this incredible thing, despite the people who had helped her trying to hold her back? For me, that was that was huge.
Devin Dabney 43:26
Yeah, that's, that makes total sense. You know, when I think about this, like, the lesson that I get from it, I think, actually, the most profound thing for me is the shadow lesson, which is, you still need support, regardless of if you're confident, right? Because we're saying all these things that are true about Lauryn Hill that like, she's a very confident person, like, she's a talented musician. And yet, and still, you know, she didn't end up making a second album, and it's because she didn't feel like she had support. So like, I think that's the biggest thing and it was kind of a relief for me. Because I've never been like a super confident person. I think, like, the older I get, the more confident and sure of myself I am. But I used to think that people all just had this like unbreakable confidence in themselves that I didn't have. But even if you are that confident, you still need to have people that are backing you and, and like believe in who you say you are and who you want to be because there's only so far you can get in this life by yourself, regardless of how talented or you know, hardworking you are, you know?
Kris Hampton 44:39
Yeah, totally. And you know, back, for a long time, hip hop presented itself as the ultimate confidence. Like there was no room for depression, or sadness, or any of that - it was pure confidence is how it presented itself. It wasn't until like, you know, oh... "808s & Heartbreak" or Kid Cudi, you know, that we really started leaning into the "Let's talk about the full range of emotions instead of just how hardcore we are."
Devin Dabney 45:11
Yeah, I mean, and actually, I'm sure we'll have a later episode on this, but just yeah, that, that era of... Kid Cudi specifically was huge for me because yeah, again, like, I grew... I wanted to be a rapper, but I just didn't feel like I fit in because I was not confident, like rappers made themselves appear to be, you know, and, and just, I was like, well, there's no... like, I'm just not like that, so I don't know how I would fit in. And also like, I mean, rap to a degree, and I've talked about this before, but rap to a degree is just like, mimicking the like, "You're not going to give us the American dream. So we're going to take it." But it's still like that same broken idea of the American dream of like, "I'm a rugged individualist." I'm gonna, you know, because how many rappers are like, they'll say, "I'm a self made millionaire. I did this all on my own." And like, I like that you, you can't. Like you literally cannot - it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter. And I'm not trying to take away from people's success, but do you understand what I'm saying? Like, the idea of "I did it all on my own," in my mind, is impossible. It just doesn't work.
Kris Hampton 46:23
Yeah. Totally. I agree completely.
Devin Dabney 46:27
Yeah. And it's just, yeah, it's just like a thing. And I think that's a trope that has kind of died off in, in hip hop, you know, post- "emotional self-actualization." But, uh, yeah, and it leaves... and it's great that it has, because it leaves more room for people that that can express other things in hip hop. Besides, I'm a like, Timba-wearin' ass-kickin', you know, 36 chambers type dude. I love those - don't get me wrong - but you get what I'm saying.
Kris Hampton 47:01
Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Alright. What are what are your favorite bars on this album? Or on this song?
Devin Dabney 47:10
Um, so let me see. One that always sticks out to me is just the "I know all the tricks from bricks to Kingston" because of the rhythm. And I love internal rhymes. And just like the little switch up there. I love...
Kris Hampton 47:27
I love that that line can be taken a couple of different ways. Like... and the more you know about her situation, the more that line means. Like she's recording the album in Kingston. She's from Brick City - Newark, New Jersey. But it could also be taken as like "from the streets," you know, you look at bricks as the streets or you know, from... and this is not in her case, but if you're, you know, listening to hip hop in general, bricks could mean from like, finding my way to make money early selling drugs, to being able to travel the world, you know? So yeah, that, that line can be seen a lot of different ways depending on who's hearing it.
Devin Dabney 48:13
Yeah, that's uh, I mean it just, that's why I like that line specifically is like, it, I mean, it really has everything that a like, a great like, it just embodies all the skills a great rapper should have: rhythm, rhyme schemes, and there's like four different ways you can take the, like the line and it all still kind of follows the same feeling, right? So it's not like a different emotion for each one - it all still is on the same theme. But yeah, I mean, it's like, the more you know, the cooler it sounds. Yeah, it just, yeah, I love that line. And then, of course, like, I also like the little like, slick things like "Can't slick talk on the day of judgment," and I'm pretty sure she makes a "Color Purple" reference because she says like, something like, "Till you do right, everything will go wrong." Yeah, and it just reminds me of the like, till you do right by me thing seen in "Color Purple." I don't know for sure, that's what that was supposed to be but, that's how I choose to take it because I mean, it just fits the whole diss situation. Of like separating and just like, yeah.
Kris Hampton 49:24
I think that's a lot of the brilliance of this song, is there's so many different ways to take what she's saying. You can repurpose it to fit your situation pretty easily. One of my favorite lines is is very similar. It's the "I was hopeless, now I'm on Hope Road." Yeah. And it's the same thing like when I first heard it, it meant one thing. Like, "now I'm on the road toward hope." Yeah. But then as I learned more about the song, she's recording it at Tuff Gong studios in Kingston, which is located at 56 Hope Road. And I'm like fuck, you know? How brilliant is she?
Devin Dabney 50:05
Well, that's uh, I mean, I can, I mean, we've probably said so many times how brilliant she is and hopefully people listening understand why we're saying it, but that's, that's one of the things about a good rapper or a great rapper, in my opinion, is like a person who knows nothing about Lauryn Hill should be able to listen to this song and still think, "Oh, that sounds good," or "That's a cool metaphor," like just what you said - like "I was hopeless, now I'm on Hope Road." Even if you don't know anything about the studio or what she's talking about, it sounds like a cool metaphor. But then like, the more you go into it, it's like, "Oh, shit - you're actually like referencing some real shit that happened? Like a real place?" And it just deepens the value of that metaphor even more. And yeah, you could just listen to the song and not know shit about the situation, or like Wyclef, or where she recorded, and it still sounds good. But the more you know, the cooler it sounds, and that's the thing that is so beautiful about hip hop to me. And one thing that I think it's coming to realize, but isn't willing to admit, is we're all just a bunch of fucking nerds. Like, this is like the nerdiest, deepest, like comic-book-type shit that I can imagine. You know? That's like...
Kris Hampton 51:19
So many references hidden in every song, yeah.
Devin Dabney 51:24
How... how is this any different than me picking up a Spider Man comic and going "Oh, that's this hero from Issue 366..."
Kris Hampton 51:33
Exactly.
Devin Dabney 51:33
"...where they do..." like it's the exact fucking same chain of like, processing and just how things are layered and building a deep, basically, like, mythos or, like, story, like this giant story of a genre of music? Um, yeah, it just - we're all just nerds!
Kris Hampton 51:54
Super nerds. Do you think - another pop question - do you think there is an heir to the throne left behind by Ms. Lauryn Hill?
Devin Dabney 52:06
Like, do I think there's a another female Poet Laureate of today?
Kris Hampton 52:12
Yeah.
Devin Dabney 52:14
Um, I think that it's kind of... like to be on the nerd reference: I think it's like Lauryn Hill had the Infinity Gauntlet. And just like the stones, like, there's pieces of it everywhere. Yeah, the stones have been spread out. But no one has all six. Like Jean Grae is someone I think of it's like,
Kris Hampton 52:33
I'm so glad you said Jean Grae.
Devin Dabney 52:33
She's definitely like, she's like a lyrical monster. But I don't know if, does she sing? Like, I don't know if she sings or not, but...
Kris Hampton 52:43
A little bit, yes. Just not on the commercial level of Lauryn.
Devin Dabney 52:49
Yeah, so like, I think that there's like, there's people or rappers that have some of those traits really strongly. But yeah, I, in my mind, I can't really think of anyone and I might be totally blanking on this. So listeners, you can, before y'all start at me, like, I might be just forgetting someone because there's just so many rappers now, but in my mind...
Kris Hampton 53:13
I don't want this, I don't want this to sound like, you know, dismissing, you know, the archetype that has, has grown so big since, which is like the Lil' Kim, Nicki Minaj, Cardi B, Megan Thee Stallion sort of archetype. Because they have their own brilliance for sure, you know...
Devin Dabney 53:35
And they can all rap, they can all rap.
Kris Hampton 53:36
Yeah, can't take anything away from any of those four women at all, but the the line of Lauryn's, like, lineage, you know, maybe there's a Rhapsody, maybe there's a Sa-roc with Rhymesayers. There are some other women out there for sure. But it was almost like, it's almost like Lauren did it so well, that it couldn't be improved upon. Whereas like Lil' Kim, did it really well. No fucking question. Yeah. And Nicki's gonna improve on it a little bit, and then Cardi is going to improve on it a little bit. And I'm just, I haven't seen a way to improve on Lauryn's archetype yet.
Devin Dabney 54:24
Yeah, I don't think, I mean, there's only, I mean, I just, I think there's only so far, like you said, I think there's only so far you can take it. Like, I mean, what else can, what else can you do? Like she could rap. She could sing. She was a musician. You know, like, talented. You know? I don't really know what else there is that you could add to that. Like but, but yeah, and I think you're, I'm glad that you said you gave that qualifier of like "This is not to say that all the female rappers are not good or that like, the other rappers past her aren't good or that the, the new, like successful female archetype is not valid." You know, like, I think,
Kris Hampton 55:09
I just see it as a different lineage. You know, Lauryn is like in the MC Lyte, Queen Latifah lineage. And then Lil' Kim began a whole new era.
Devin Dabney 55:21
It's kind of, I mean, it's kind of like what we're watching. I mean, if we go back to their male counterparts, like we, we saw the pinnacle of what, like, the gangster rapper could be, you know? Like, the combination of street life and commercial life. Like we got that. And now we're in the era of like, I don't know, we may not be in the emotional era anymore. We might be in like a different era. Yeah, but just like we, we had, like an, like the competition of, like, trying to be the most emotionally forthcoming you know, like the Kid Cudi and like, Drake - I think Drake has pretty much hit his final form, you know what I mean? Like, he's not going to change anymore.
Kris Hampton 56:04
The seven different forms of Drake.
Devin Dabney 56:06
Yeah, I think this is the form like, I think we're stuck with this one. Not to say it's bad, but I think this is it. I don't think he has any more transformations hidden behind this. Yeah, so yeah,
Kris Hampton 56:18
I wonder, I wonder where it all goes. It'll be interesting to watch.
Devin Dabney 56:20
I don't know. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious to watch like the evolution of... yeah, just like the lineage you just talked about with like Nicki and Cardi, and now, I almost want to say Megan is an improvement on the arche-... like, just like the role of that, like Lil' Kim spot in hip hop. Simply because I love that she's like, I mean, she's also like, admitting that she's a nerd, you know, like, I love that about her. Like, just the, I mean, she... yeah, I mean, she just likes a lot of the same stuff I like, so like watching her dress up as Pinhead for Halloween or, or like reference Naruto in her, in her raps and shit like that. That's why I see her as an improvement because it's like, "I can rap and I have like the visual appeal and also I'm a nerd and I'm still better than you so you can't even like, you can't even shit talk me. I can talk about whatever I want." Yeah, I love that about her.
Kris Hampton 56:52
Yeah, same. Alright. If you're watching this on YouTube, or listening to it anywhere but Spotify, you're missing half of the podcast. Every other week, we release short focused essays called Lessons which are set to beats, followed by the full song that we're learning the lesson from. Those are only available on Spotify. If you stick around right after this episode, you'll hear this week's lesson. I won't do that all the time. But you should go to Spotify and check those out. We've got all of these links and videos and more bonus material at the blog posts for these episodes at hiphoptaughtmeeverything.com . You can find us on Instagram and Twitter. And we'll see you next time when Devin is taught humility from an irreverent general of the mumble rap army.
Devin Dabney 58:11
What a way to end that! I love it. I'm looking forward to it. Oh, shoot.