Liner Notes | J. Cole’s “Middle Child”
Artist: J. Cole
Song: Middle Child
Producers: T-Minus and J. Cole
Album: Revenge of the Dreamers III
Label: Dreamville/Roc Nation/Interscope
Release Date: January 23, 2019
What is your favorite mentor/mentee relationship in hip hop?
Kris: Pharrell and Pusha T
Devin: Dr. Dre and Eminem
What are your favorite bars from “Middle Child”?
Kris:
Fuck if you feel me, you ain't got a choice
Now I ain't do no promo, still made all that noise
This shit gon' be different, I set my intentions
I promise to slap all that hate out your voice
Devin:
We hurting our sisters, the babies as well
We killing our brothers, they poisoned the well
Distorted self image, we set up to fail
I'ma make sure that the real gon' prevail, nigga
Links/Videos mentioned in the episode:
Watch Kris and Devin’s live recording of this episode on YouTube:
FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Devin Dabney 00:08
I'm Devin Dabney.
Devin Dabney 00:10
And this is how… Hip Hop Taught Me Everything.
Kris Hampton 00:10
I'm Kris Hampton.
Kris Hampton 00:20
First off, if you have not listened to this week's episode, "J. Cole Taught Me Mentorship", go do that. Right now. It's only available on Spotify because it's a Music + Talk podcast. And with Spotify Premium, you're able to listen to the full song, in this case, "Middle Child", immediately after the episode. Now, before we get into these liner notes, Devin, what is your favorite mentor/mentee relationship in all of hip hop for all time?
Devin Dabney 00:53
I love that you added for all of hip hop in to it forever. Um, you know, I feel like it's kind of a basic answer, but I really love Dr. Dre and Eminem's relationship for a few reasons. One, honestly, like the mentorship was kind of a risk for Dr. Dre. I mean, he was picking up a white rapper when, at that time, I think Vanilla Ice was the only white rapper that was really popular. And not only that, but his production style had to change a lot for Eminem. So like he's making these like goofy, I mean we think of them as hits now but, like the the beat for like "My Name Is" and "Real Slim Shady" - they've got these like goofy harpsichord like... it's a far cry from The Chronic so it was a risk but he took it and and obviously worked out.
Kris Hampton 01:49
And it definitely wasn't the like hardcore Dre West Coast sound.
Devin Dabney 01:56
No, no, no and like, but I mean, and that leads into my other reason for loving this relationship is they both benefited and grew from it. You know, like we think, I think, mentor/mentee relationships are, you know, mutually beneficial. It isn't just about having a teacher teach you everything. It's you know, the teacher should ideally learn from the relationship, too. And I mean, honestly, you even kind of see it in in 2001. Like the album 2001, the song "Forgot About Dre" kind of incorporates all that goofy production that he just did for Eminem for the last 10 years. So yeah, that's probably my favorite.
Kris Hampton 02:38
Yeah, I love it. I almost said Dre and Snoop. That was...
Devin Dabney 02:43
Oooooh.
Kris Hampton 02:43
...that was my close second for what I chose. But I went, I went with something that more recently has popped into my head as interesting. And that's Pharrell and Pusha T.
Devin Dabney 02:57
Ah, yeah, that's, oh man, I thought about that, too.
Kris Hampton 03:00
And the reason that has popped into my head recently is because Pusha on Instagram and Twitter recently said that he played Pharrell his new song "Hear Me Clearly" that's out now. And Pharrell responded, "It's cool, but I don't want you to be a mixtape rapper for the rest of your life." Which is exactly what he needed. You know?
Devin Dabney 03:28
Yeah.
Kris Hampton 03:29
Pusha T is one of those great what ifs? Like,
Devin Dabney 03:34
I know.
Kris Hampton 03:35
He's a lyrical monster. He's fucking brilliant. And you think back to songs like "Grindin'" and you know, he can make hits, you know? Yeah. So. So Pharrell saying, "Look, this song is good, I like that you're in your bag, but you can do more."
Devin Dabney 03:56
Yeah, you're sure so right. I mean, actually. I think of him, Pusha T, as like a great example of longevity in rap. He is he's someone that only has gotten better, or at the very least, stayed consistently good. Yeah. And and I don't know it's just funny because in my head, I guess I don't think of him as a mixtape rapper. Because to me, like his albums are all like, really, really good.
Kris Hampton 04:23
Yeah, but we're checkin' for that, you know?
Devin Dabney 04:27
Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Like I'm thinking about that album Daytona that Kanye produced. I'm like, that album is like so solid. But it's there's not like radio or club songs on it.
Kris Hampton 04:40
Right.
Devin Dabney 04:41
Which, yeah, I guess that would kind of make you a mixtape rapper. Or an underground rapper, I guess.
Kris Hampton 04:47
Yeah. And I read this interview with Pusha T. I think I read it... maybe I listened to it on a podcast. But he said that way back in the like, pre Lord Willin' days. Like before their first big album came out. Before we knew who the Clipse was, he was sitting at home one day and got a call from Pharrell, who said, "I have a beat. It's gonna be the next thing. You need to get to the studio within the next 15 minutes, or I'm giving this beat to Jay Z." And he was like, "I know your house is 10 minutes away from the studio. That gives you five minutes to get the fuck out the door."
Devin Dabney 05:29
Mm hmm.
Kris Hampton 05:30
Pusha said he was there in 13 minutes. And that became "Grindin'" So it almost went to Jay Z. So because Pharrell was willing to push Pusha T, no pun intended, that beat became the fucking classic that it is.
Devin Dabney 05:51
You know, the this kind of reminds me of - this is not music related but - you know how The Matrix was originally intended for Will Smith to be Neo. It's like, on one hand, I'm like, okay, I see why they would have chosen him. But also the movie wouldn't have become what it was if Will Smith was Neo, you know? Same with that beat with Jay Z. Like, could you, I mean, I get like Jay Z probably would have done a great job, but that song wouldn't have been what it was. If it wasn't for Clipse rapping on it. So it's one of those funny things where like, oh, the fate kind of went the direction it was supposed to.
Kris Hampton 06:29
Yeah. And Pharrell knew that. Like he knew what Pusha T could do over it. So he was like, here's your constraint. You have to be here in 15 minutes or else. Like, I can make you a star, but you got five minutes to get ready.
Devin Dabney 06:46
Man, yeah, I, you know, I hope he does one day go back to making hits. Because, I mean, he's just like, I guess I've never really thought about it that way until you mentioned it. But yeah, he's a very underappreciated figure in the hip hop world. Because yeah, he's just someone I come back to all the time when I think of who has a great flow or who just is a good rapper... like a great rapper, actually. So yeah, respect is due there.
Kris Hampton 07:14
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the new album, half produced by Kanye half produced by Pharrell.
Devin Dabney 07:19
Oh, yeah, I am, too. Now that you say that.
Kris Hampton 07:22
Could be amazing. Alright, let's get into some of these liner notes. Fun facts about the song, the album. "Middle Child". That's what we talked about on this week's episode. Question: have you seen the documentary "Dreamville Presents: Revenge"?
Devin Dabney 07:41
No, no,
Kris Hampton 07:42
Oh, man, you've got to watch it. It's like 30 minutes long. It's on YouTube. I'll have the link in the show notes here. And it's all of the recording sessions for the album, that "Middle Child" was on: Revenge of the Dreamers III happened at Tree Sound Studios in Atlanta. And it was like big internet, hip hop internet sensation at the time, because all of a sudden, all of these rappers and producers were posting the invites on their Twitter and on their Instagram. And Cole invited 343 different artists and producers for 10 days in the studio. And they made 142 songs over those 10 days. The who-was-who of hip hop.
Devin Dabney 08:32
Oh my God.
Kris Hampton 08:34
And the documentary captures it.
Devin Dabney 08:37
How have I not heard about that that at all yet, man? I feel I don't know how behind the times I am. But I mean, are these like available songs? Are they just like slowly being released? Or like some of them have been released already? Like, what's the story on that?
Kris Hampton 08:52
A lot of them became the album Revenge of the Dreamers III but then a lot of them went to other artists and you know, they weren't all stuck to the Dreamville camp, I don't think anyway. right. Some of them might have you know, morphed into JID's album or Bas's album or Earth Gang or whatever. But just fucking bananas. Like it's it's crazy. That kind of meeting of the minds and, and Cole just invited everybody it was like, let's let's all make this a beautiful thing.
Devin Dabney 09:28
Yeah, man. That's like, that's like one of the things I love about just hip hop in general is that it just it relies so much on like, collaboration and like what is circulating at the time and like who's working with who and like a lot of the greatest things we think of in hip hop were created out of that. Like, I mean, like Illmatic for example. like that was like the the Justice League of producers in the 90's like all gathering around this new lyrical phenom, you know? Yeah, so I just I don't know, I love hearing that. And I love hearing that it still happens because we were kind of talking about this before you started recording but music just keeps changing - not like the sound of music, but like the the laws around music and the way the music business is run keeps changing. And the way it changes influences how music is done. And so yeah, just to hear that people still like, that those still happen is just like, makes me happy.
Kris Hampton 10:32
I know. No, like, no worrying about who's label you're on. Right. And can we work together and all of that political bureaucracy bullshit. That just just making shit.
Devin Dabney 10:46
Yeah, exactly. That's, and I didn't even think about that until you said it either. But just the whole, competing with labels and competing with other... like hip hop, I mean, I guess hip hop is naturally competitive, but it's not that kind of competitive where like, oh, we have like trade secrets, or like, we're only gonna work with these artists. It was like competitive in the sense of like, I'm gonna beat you, but you're gonna like, know, like, I'm going to tell you exactly what I'm going to do. And I'm still gonna beat you. You know, like, that was the competitive nature. And it really wasn't about who beat who. It was just the nature of like, I'm going to give my best effort. And whether I win or lose, like, I still think I'm the best anyway. So it's cool.
Kris Hampton 11:31
Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna step in the booth right after you. And I'm gonna body you.
Devin Dabney 11:36
That's yeah, yeah, that's, that's the competitive nature that, that it's missing, not the like, oh, well, we want to make more money, or we want to, like, protect this thing. You know, like, I don't know, I sound like a such an old dude right now, like these young thundercats with their record labels...
Kris Hampton 11:59
Yeah, I feel you though. I did a deep dive in this because, you know, I had read a few stories here and there. And I knew that like, "Down Bad" came from these sessions. And it was a situation where, JID walked into the studio while they were working on the song. And he was like, "Oh, let me get on this." And he came up with the hook right there. And, you know, and that became what, I mean, it's a brilliant song. "Middle Child", however, was not part of the sessions. It's one of the only songs on the album that wasn't, Cole had it for over a month and held on to it, and was like, this song is gonna be it. So I'm putting it on this album. And one of the things I find super interesting about the song - you were just talking about the business - and sampling has become this, this hard to do thing for artists because it can cost so much money to to clear a sample, you're paying your, you know, your publishing, you know, a lot of the publishing goes to the original owner of the sample. Oftentimes, it doesn't even go to the person who played the sample, which is kind of heartbreaking.
Devin Dabney 13:16
Yeah. Oh, my God. That's ironic.
Kris Hampton 13:20
Yeah, and one of the interesting things about this song is that this is the first time, or at least one of the first times, that a sample was bought from a relatively new website called Track Lib, which is a site that has already played the middleman for all of these samples. And, and not only do they have all of these old soul records, and lots of others as part of their catalog, for a lot of them, they've got the stems. So in this case, T Minus and J. Cole found the sample on Track Lib, and it has vocals over it, the horn samples got vocals over it, but because Track Lib had the stems, they were able to isolate just the horns and speed those up a little bit and use that sample as the backbone for this beat. They found the sample, made the beat, completed the song, in one day - one session, and they cleared the sample the same day because of Track Lib for only $500.
Devin Dabney 14:30
Man, what'd you call that website? Hold on a second. Track Lib? Because I mean, I that's that's like beyond, like I was, when you said that they cleared the sample because of this website, I didn't, I was not picturing that they would also have like the recording stems so that you could be like, "Oh, I just want the drums or I just want the vocals." That's that's also amazing. Okay, so maybe let me redact a little of what I said earlier about music changing because it changes but it stays the same, like we're still able to do a lot of the things that we were able to do before. It's just differently done now.
Kris Hampton 15:12
Yeah, and 9th Wonder has been going hard for Track Lib. I don't know if he's involved in it somehow. But he does a lot of work for them. And through them. There's a great series of videos of 9th Wonder and Bob James, talking about all of the records that have sampled Bob James like "Nautilus", which is one of the most sampled songs in hip hop history. And they're just in conversation, pointing out the samples. And Bob James is playing them and showing, you know, telling 9th how they came about and, and he's excited about hip hop sampling his stuff, you know? Excited to have this avenue where he can still get paid. And the artists can do it legally. Yeah. And so it doesn't have to become this, like, label fight, or red tape, bureaucracy bullshit.
Devin Dabney 16:08
You know, um, I don't know, if I'm pretty sure that this is accurate, so don't quote me on it but, you know, I was thinking of Kanye just because of like, just this conversation around sampling. And when he made that series of five albums in 2018, that was like, Nas, Pusha T, and Teyana Taylor's album was on there. I think one of the reasons her album was delayed forever, I'm pretty sure one of the reasons is because Kanye had a hard time clearing the samples that he used for her beats. And that was such a huge source of frustration for her, you know, because her album keeps getting delayed, and she's supposed to be this new, or not new, but up-and-coming artists for GOOD Music. And so it just goes to show I mean, even Kanye, like someone who's been sampling for 30 years, you know, is still - and has the clout that he does, you know, this isn't like me trying to sample something, this is like the king of sampling - he still has a hard time with it. So it's just there's so much red tape that goes around it now, for for some of the right reasons, right, like music is hard to protect. And, but yeah, I mean, it can just be I mean, I'm just glad that this source, like, Track Lib exists for little people like me, you know, who just want to use samples.
Kris Hampton 17:26
You know, What's also nice about it is like, if Kanye approaches a label and is like, I want to, you know, buy rights to the sample. The label knows it's Kanye. So they're gonna be like, "Well, this is gonna cost you a lot more."
Devin Dabney 17:43
That's a good point."
Kris Hampton 17:43
Then if Devin Dabney came to us and wanted to use this sample, you know, because we know what you're gonna make off of this. But with Track Lib, he could buy that sample for $500
Devin Dabney 17:54
Oh, dude, this is this is kind of off track. But I had a really interesting conversation with, uh, with one of my good friends, that's also a rapper about like, the conversation of like, how much to charge for your beats as a producer. And he made a really interesting point that, you know, as a producer, and a rapper that like a producer that's selling a beat, and a rapper that's buying the beat, you both are making a bet. And the bet for the producer, the bet is that you are not going to make more than the amount that I'm selling you this beat for with it. So like, if I sell a beat to a rapper for $1,000, I'm assuming like, oh, like, if they've got the rights to it whatever, like that, you know, $1,000 is what you're gonna make or less. And then the rapper is betting, you know, I can make more than $1,000 if I take this beat, so it's just an interest... I mean, it just kind of brought to light that, when you mentioned that, like, well, it's Kanye making it so I know, he's going to make some multimillion dollar hit off of this. So I'm gonna raise the price for it. Whereas with a small rapper, it's like, well, I don't know what you're gonna do with it. So I don't need to charge you. But it's it would be a bet again, right? Like, you could be like, Oh, well, if it's a no name rapper, I'll set it to you for $50. And then it's like a hit single. I think the the tough part is that, you know, without the clout that Kanye has, you don't get that conversation. So you would need to be a middle ground between like a local rapper and Kanye... is that like, Joe Budden? You know, maybe that's the middle ground like you want to be? Yeah, well, Joe's gonna buy this beat. Yes,
Kris Hampton 19:34
Talib Kweli.
Devin Dabney 19:37
Yeah, yeah, maybe that's a better example, like someone who's known and is good but is not going to... not not any shade to either of them, obviously, but... it's not going to make like some mega multibillion dollar hit, you know?
Kris Hampton 19:52
Right. Yeah. There's also an interesting tangent off of this is that like, there's this stigma still amongst a lot of producers of digging digitally, you know, like they want to pull samples off of vinyl. Like that's still the...
Devin Dabney 20:11
Really? Oh my God.
Kris Hampton 20:12
That's still the ethos for a lot of those kind of old-head producers. And a lot of people just haven't embraced the, you know, I can get my samples off the internet, which seems crazy to me. It's... when I started sampling, I went straight to CD's and and mp3's as soon as they were available.
Devin Dabney 20:36
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess because of my age, like pulling samples from vinyl wasn't even like a conversation. You know, like, I, from the second I started making music, it was I pulled it off of the Internet to work with. Like, that was, I don't have - I mean, I have vinyls, but - I mean, I don't even know how you would pull it off of a vinyl and make it digital. So yeah, that's a that's crazy. I hadn't even thought about that. I thought it was just like a cool thing to do now not like, "Oh, I'm only analog."
Kris Hampton 21:10
Mm hmm. Yeah. So this is a great way for like the new producer, to, to be able to use all of those old pieces of music and turn them into something new, which is hip hop, you know?
Devin Dabney 21:23
Yeah. And it's kind of like, I guess a, a, really just the way that the track was created is kind of a testament to the message of the track anyway, where it's like, there's still the old element of sampling, but it was done in this new way. For $500.
Kris Hampton 21:41
And then went five times platinum. Amazing.
Devin Dabney 21:45
We, we know who lost that bet. But I guess Track Lib is fine. Like they're, they're selling samples left and right, but...
Kris Hampton 21:50
Yeah, and, and I've put a I put a link in the show notes here as well to a YouTube video from Track Lib that is done really well and shows the breakdown of how they, how the sample looked when they first heard it, how they pull the stem, how they speed it up and how it becomes "Middle Child". So go check that out.
Devin Dabney 22:12
That's dope. That, okay, so that goes back to what I was saying earlier about, like, showing you that's something I love as like a music nerd. Like I love watching, like, Oh, here's the sample that I found. And here's the things I did, like the specific things I did to it. I added this filter, I did that. Like, I just want to see it, just - not so that I can do it, obviously, it's already been done - but just to watch creative process is just so valuable as a musician for me. Anyway. So I'm probably gonna watch that myself.
Kris Hampton 22:43
Yeah, and speaking of you know, watching the creative process, you had said that you'd been watching this video and you know, really breaking down this video and we haven't talked about it at all yet. It's amazing. So let's get into that.
Devin Dabney 22:56
Yeah it's a great video. Yeah, it's, it's, it's also nice to see that great music videos still happen. You know, like, that's something that I miss about the MTV era. But the reason I love the music video for this song "Middle Child" is because a lot of the imagery in it, and and Cole has even said this himself, is... lampooning? I don't know if that's the correct word? Or mimicking Middle America. So he's, he's taking these like, things from hip hop, and he's transplanting them into like, these stereotypically Midwestern things. So like, mudding, but he's in like, an expensive-ass car. Or like, he's sitting in like a hunting lodge. But instead of like animals, it's rappers that are on the wall. You know like, the the marching band thing, like even just like the really small town grocery store that he's in, is super, like, evocative of like, middle of nowhere Indiana, you know? So it just, I don't know, I just love when there's like, that juxtaposition of like, you know, there's a lot of ways to mean like, middle child, or like, there's just a lot of ways to play with it. And I mean, you know, right, he could have just made some normal music video, but I always love music videos that have like, they don't have to be overly creative, but just like a little bit of like, Oh, I'm going to take this stereotypical thing and put put it over something that you haven't seen before. Or I guess in this case, it's like two stereotypes coming together to make something unique, you know?
Kris Hampton 24:37
Yeah. Yeah. There's there's one moment in the video that I think is really poignant and important, and that's in the grocery store. You know, the small town, small town little grocery store. It's in the freezer aisle, there are black women features...
Devin Dabney 24:57
Dang it, you, you got me!
Kris Hampton 24:59
...for sale in the freezer. And, and it's white women picking up features of black women and putting them in their carts, and it's just fucking mind blowing to watch.
Devin Dabney 25:11
Yeah, that... shoot! That was the other thing I was gonna say. And it's actually, I mean, it's always gonna be relevant. But it's particularly relevant as we're having this conversation now, because I just saw this article that was talking about how white women are, white women... they've discovered laying your edges, or baby hairs, you know?
Kris Hampton 25:33
I saw you post that on Instagram.
Devin Dabney 25:34
It's like, how late are you? Like, they've been doing that for probably like 80 years at this point. But it's just funny because in the video, that's like a specific thing that they point out. It's like, at the end of the music video, this white woman walks in, and she sees the black woman that's like, stoking the fire at the lodge. And it zooms in and there's like a little text thing that pops up and it says "baby hairs." And then she goes to the store and buys baby hairs. Yeah. So I just thought it was funny that we're talking about this now, when like, this is like particularly relevant today.
Kris Hampton 26:11
Yeah, Cole's a prophet.
Devin Dabney 26:13
Yeah, he knew he knew that in four years that Kris Hampton and Devin Dabney, were gonna be recording the first Liner Notes episode and then an article would be written. But I mean, and also like this, this also testifies to, one of the things that I love about him is that he's really pretty timeless. Like, his music is always going to have some sort of relevance. Most of his songs can be played in pretty much any year - I mean, you know, production aside - and sound relevant, you know? Like, cultural appropriation is not going to ever not be relevant, you know?
Kris Hampton 26:47
It's not going away, sadly.
Devin Dabney 26:49
Yes, it's not going away. And it's always going to be at the forefront, as long as like black people are like the leading creators of, of entertainment culture, which I think will always be the case, it's just always gonna be a conversation. So I just love, I just love rappers that find ways to stay relevant and stay, you know, with the times, but don't, but they don't change who they are, or like, change what they write about, necessarily. It's just like, the things they choose to... I don't know how to say it. You get what I'm saying, though, right? He's not changing who he is, but he's still staying relevant.
Kris Hampton 27:27
Yeah, absolutely. Do you have an opinion on who the three mounted heads of the rappers are? Do you think there's someone in particular?
Devin Dabney 27:38
Uh, I was thinking about that. You know, I don't think so. I mean, he, he has always been the kind of rapper who's like, I'm not afraid of any of you. But I'm not like, I don't have anything against any of you either. You know, Yeah. 'Cause I was actually, before we got on this call, I was looking at them. And I was like, is that.... Like, who is this supposed to be? I don't think he's like aiming at anybody specifically, I think he was just picking like, people that kind of looked like a lot of modern rappers and a lot of older rappers. But I don't know. In my opinion, I think it's just like a general like... "Here, this could be you." I mean, it literally says on one of the like, little placards, "This could be you if you..." You know, fuck. Basically "fuck around and find out" is what he's telling you. But yeah, I don't know. I'm curious to hear what you think. But I don't think it's aimed at anybody in particular.
Kris Hampton 28:32
Yeah, I share your sentiment, but I did go down a rabbit hole on the internet, trying to see what other people thought and, and a lot of people have opinions. I mean, somebody was like, "He's dissing Jay Z," which, I don't even know where that comes from. Some people said Kanye, some people said Offset which one of them does look a little like Offset there. Yeah. And some people said Kendrick, and this was, it wasn't soon after the "Control" verse, I don't think, where Kendrick goes "Everybody, including Cole." but in a in a friendly competition sort of way. I do think that, you know, like that Zeitgeist that Kendrick kind of began, of the like, "I will murder you, you know, on the mic," kind of a feeling? Kendrick rekindled that in a lot of people and I do think this, these like rap, mounted rapper heads above the mantle are a byproduct of that. But I don't think it's necessarily a response to Kendrick or a shot at anyone in particular, it's just Cole being Cole.
Devin Dabney 29:47
And like, why would, why - just thinking about the Jay Z thing - why would he, why would he diss Jay Z in the same song where he said I'm meeting Jigga for lunch, you know, like that? I don't know. I feel like he would be pretty upfront about it. And then like on the Kanye note, like he has a whole song for Kanye West. Yeah, he doesn't... yeah, you know what I mean? I can't.... what's the name of that song? It's uhhhh... shoot.
Kris Hampton 30:12
I don't know the name of it. There is a line in the beginning of this song or near the beginning of the song where people speculate he's talking about Kanye where he says, "it won't be to sell you my latest little sneakers." And he's talking about Kanye trying to sell his Yeezys or whatever. A lot of people have speculated that which, you know... maybe. But, again, that's what hip hop is. It's... hip hop is a sport as much as an art, you know.
Devin Dabney 30:40
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and the competitive nature of it, which I think people miss is like, it usually is not... I mean, it's not meant to be actually hateful or confrontational. You know, I think that we got, I mean, of course, everyone will point to, like, the 90's and, like, Death Row, and Bad Boy, but like, that was like the pinnacle of that, like actual hatred in music, and we kind of saw like, where it led. And after, after we lost, Big and Pac like, you see that it kind of stopped. So I mean, just, I think people read too much into things sometimes. And I think most of the time, if a rapper wants to talk shit about somebody, like, they're going to. Because rappers are just naturally... they're, they're confident! Like they, they... you know, like, I don't know. And it's not a one size fits all situation. But yeah, I'm not like, I'm not like deciphering like, oh, well, this rapper sold shoes so it must be about them. I feel like especially with Cole, like if you're gonna... if he's gonna talk shit about you, you'll know.
Kris Hampton 31:48
Yeah, everybody just wants there to be smoke. That's it. Alright. Let's get a little more personal with this album. Like, I have a very distinct memory, and I talk about this in the, you know, in the first part of this episode, of hearing these bars for the first time. I was not a Cole fan, necessarily. Like I was, you know, I had listened to a lot of his stuff, but it wasn't something I'd kept on repeat, you know? Yeah. And I, you know, he's skillful. I respect that, I recognize it. It just wasn't for me. And we were, I can tell you the intersection we were at when those bars came on. Like I say in the piece, my wife loves to play hip hop that I don't know about. Like she she grew up in Wyoming and didn't know hip hop at all until we met. And now she like checks and she loves boom bap and things that sound older. And she'll play it when I'm in the car like all nonchalantly, you know. And I'm just looking at her like, how do you know about this, you know? And she played this song. And when he says, "Fuck, if you feel me you ain't got a choice. Now I ain't do no promo, still made all that noise. This shit gon' be different, I set my intentions, I promise to slap all that hate out your voice." I was like, whoa. Right now he is saying how I feel. Yeah. And for me, that's so fucking important for a song. And I've I've just been having this conversation with myself and a lot of other people about... A: a lot of us who've been around for a long time are constantly you know, trash talking newer rappers.
Devin Dabney 33:52
Mm hmm.
Kris Hampton 33:53
Newer anything, it doesn't matter what scene you're a part of. You're always trashing the new shit. And, and B: we hold this like reverence for the old school so much so that we're like, they can do no wrong.
Devin Dabney 34:09
Yep.
Kris Hampton 34:09
And I don't think that's a healthy perspective. And I love that in, in these bars, he's just like, "Look, you're the OG's; I respect you, but I will slap all that hate out your voice."
Devin Dabney 34:21
Make no mistake, though. Yeah, I mean, that's like, that's like such a. I mean, it's just such a like, like cartoon character, anime style of like, "I don't care how strong you are; I'm still gonna kick your ass," like sort of mindset. That's what I like about him a lot is that he's always, I mean, he's always been like that and like, in very in a very cool, calm, collected sort of way. And I mean, I think that's why I like him. Like why like J. Cole specifically, you know, like, when I think about all of his music as a whole, he's, I mean, he is a good rapper, but he's not like someone who like makes me rewind because he said some crazy metaphor or something like that. It's usually just because of the way he tells stories. And the way he makes things real. Like how you said, like, I felt that or I'm feeling this right now. He's very good at that. That's to me, that's his greatest merit as a rapper - just his, his authentic storytelling. So...
Kris Hampton 35:23
Yeah, he's so relatable, like the whole... everything he does seem so relatable. Like, "Oh, that could be me."
Devin Dabney 35:31
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's something that I think is missed, at least by me sometimes, with rappers is... like, I mean, everybody serves a purpose, right? You do have to have rappers like, like Rick Ross, that just rap about these like wildly unrealistic, luxury lifestyles. And then like, you know, and then rappers like this who are telling, like, the stories that are happening around them, which is basically what hip hop was when it started. Yeah, it just, yeah, I don't know. I just really appreciate that specifically about him. Because, you know, again, like, I when I think about him as a rapper, I'm like, he's good. Like, he's certainly good. But he's never been like, oh, wow, that rhyme scheme was like, out of this world, or like that rhythm was out of this world. I mean, honestly, I think the like, the cadence he raps in for this song is the same the whole time. So he's not like switching his flow up. But he doesn't need to, because like, you're... I'm focused on like, the story he's telling. So...
Kris Hampton 36:34
Yeah, same. Have you ever listened to this entire album?
Devin Dabney 36:37
I actually haven't.
Kris Hampton 36:39
I haven't either.
Devin Dabney 36:40
And you know, that I'm ashamed to say this but, the first time I heard - well, I'm not ashamed because of the the reason - but the first time I heard this song was when you played it for me.
Kris Hampton 36:52
Really?
Devin Dabney 36:53
Yeah. Yeah. Don't you remember? Like, we were driving to Boulder. And you were like, have you heard "Middle Child"? And I was like, No. And then that was when you played it.
Kris Hampton 37:04
I don't remember this at all.
Devin Dabney 37:05
Yeah. So it's just kind of a like, funny, full circle situation. Because yeah, you were the person that played the song for me. And you pointed out the, I mean, it was like, you told me the story that you just told everyone else.
Kris Hampton 37:17
Oh, really?
Devin Dabney 37:19
Yeah. So it's just kind of see it all, like, come back together. But yeah, like, I mean, just, you know, passing it down, right? Like so, and little did we know, once again, that, like, a year or so later, this is what we would be doing. Talking about the song.
Kris Hampton 37:36
Yeah. And that's, you know, that's one of the things that's relatable about this. Like, I feel like a middle child. Like I, I have learned, I have learned from a lot of, you know, my elders, and I really enjoy passing down that knowledge that I've gained.
Devin Dabney 37:56
Mm hmm. Yeah, so yeah. And I think like, you know, the thing that it kind of brought to light for me is that we all have a point in our life where we become that, you know, where we're transitioning from the young new thing to like the veteran, you know, and I think that's, it just, it just brought more awareness to like, Oh, where am I in my hip hop journey? You know, and I kind of feel like, that's where I am right now in my journey, where, like, I'm definitely not a new rapper anymore. But I don't, I don't think I'm an old rapper either. And I have people...
Kris Hampton 38:31
I am an old rapper.
Devin Dabney 38:35
I mean, old by the, by the standard that like, rappers aren't typically older, you know, we, but we haven't even gotten to see rappers age yet. Because hip hop is only... it's like, literally, hip hop's only like five years older than you, you know what I mean? Like, and I'm saying that as like, it's young. Like, I'm not saying that you.... it sounds terrible, but you get what I'm saying. Like hip hop has only been around for 50 years. Like, yeah, literally 50 years. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, so the people that are doing it, are just now like, the first rappers are just now starting to hit their, like, 70's you know, and not even that, and most of them are probably still in their 60's. So yeah, we just, we just don't have very many examples of rappers getting older, you know. And so I just love that J. Cole, like embodied a piece of that journey, where it's not like I'm old, but it's like, oh, like, I'm not I'm not the young gun anymore. But I'm also like, respected too, so I don't know. It's a really cool, like, piece of time that he's got.
Kris Hampton 39:43
Yeah, I agree. What are your favorite bars from the song?
Devin Dabney 39:49
Um, yeah. I have a couple. I mean, there's nothing - I think I said this earlier, but - there's nothing that like was like "whoa" for me, but I just love it. Little quips like, "I studied the greats. I'm the greatest right now." Like, yeah, I was a good student and here's my proof or like, "I hope you know money won't erase the pain." Like, it's not, like, profound but it's just the way it's said in the context makes me like, yeah, yeah, like I love that. One thing I do love that's a little more lyrical is the line, "We killing our brothers, they poisoned the well." because it seems simple, but it's it just is like, it's it's actually really deep, because it's talking about how like, we're killing each other. But we don't even know how or why we're killing each other basically. Of like, we're defeating ourselves and we like know it, but we don't know how it's happening. And it's because we're just handing water from this well that was poisoned. You know, so it's just, I don't know, I just thought that was really profound because it it really encapsulated like, one of the plights of black America, you know, is like, you know, the cards are stacked against you. And you're like, and people can say, like, you're responsible for it, but you you're really not. Like there's... it was all predetermined before you. So that's probably my favorite line, honestly, just because of how deep it is, and how how simple it is.
Kris Hampton 41:16
Yeah, I love that he slides that section in there. Like, here's this song, that's a little braggadocious, and then... I have great respect for people who can, like hide the medicine, you know, in the dessert, or whatever. And I think he does that here where he slides in this, this short piece about, you know, we clump, we come from a long bloodline of trauma. And, and I'm just like, oh, that's, that's brilliant. You know, we we have to be these people. We have to, we have to help the people coming up. We have to learn from our elders. Yeah. And here's, and here's why.
Devin Dabney 41:59
Yeah, shit, you know, you kind of just piece together like, once again, like he's alluding to the message of the song is like, "As a middle child, like, this is what I'm noticing." You know, like, "I can see both sides of the situation." Yeah, it just, yeah, I mean, it just makes me like that line even more because, I didn't even think about it in the context of being a brother. Like, uh, you know, like, middle child. But that's, that's exactly why he put it in the song. And that's why he's a really good rapper.
Kris Hampton 42:32
Yeah, for sure. For me, it's definitely the the "Fuck if you feel me, you ain't got a choice." lines. You know, the bars I already mentioned. Those are the ones for me. Those are the ones that made it an anthem for me. Those bars are the reason that I have a playlist on Spotify that is just this song. And I listened to it... I was driving across the country and feeling a way, and I listened to the song, I mean, it had to have been 100 times in a row. I don't I don't do that. I'm an album person. I don't listen to the same song over and over. So...
Devin Dabney 43:09
Yeah, I think I'm like you where I usually am an album person. But admittedly, just as music has changed, and the way that it's been created has changed, like, I, if I find a song I really like? I listen to it a thousand times and then and then I incorporate it into my regular rotation, you know, so like... just especially the way music is now where it's designed, basically, to be addictive and to be replayable... And I'm such a production nerd. Like I just love any kind of production, not just hip hop, but just really appreciating the way songs are put together and like the thought behind it. Like, yeah, sometimes it just lends itself to being played over and over and over again, until like, you just put it in your regular playlist.
Kris Hampton 43:57
Yeah. On this on this note, just a quick side tangent here. My friend Brendan Leonard sent me a video from Complex that's called "The Rap Music Generation Gap Debate." And it was a panel hosted by Angie Martinez. And I'll put a link to it in the show notes here, but at around five minutes and 24 seconds in Pete Rock who... absolute legend, no question, you know, can't can't take that away from him... But he's talking way out of pocket about new rappers and how trash they all are, you know. And Vince Staples steps in and yeah, quite, quite calmly and politely and concisely, slap slaps the hate out of Pete's voice and I love it. It makes me so happy when people do that.
Devin Dabney 44:57
Oh my gosh, yeah. And I'm so glad that Vince Staples is the one to do it, because he's another new rapper that I absolutely love. Yeah. And I feel like he's kind of another middle child too, in the sense of like, he is like, he embodies both the old and new ways of hip hop, you know, like, he's got a lot of that in him. And, yeah, that's, I mean, I don't know, I guess we'll have an episode on this later in the podcast, but just there was a moment in time where I realized that that was what I was doing, that I was leaning too much into, like, oh, all these new rappers are garbage. And like, you know, the reality of it is like - just to put it as super succinctly, like to make it a very short story - is that there are just more rappers. They were like, the percentage of bad and good rappers, I don't think is that different. I just think that 40 years ago, there was like, 70 rappers and like, two of them were trash. But now there's God knows how many rappers and a lot of them are trash, but it's just proportionally larger. Like, there's still plenty of good rappers. There's still plenty of great rappers. And there's a lot of okay, rappers, you know? I don't think it's really any different than it was a lot like 40 years ago. You know?
Kris Hampton 46:15
Yeah, I am definitely in danger of becoming that person, you know? And I have a 24-year-old daughter who has helped me in that regard. Like, she turned me on to Chance and to Tyler and Odd Future, and, you know, and, and I love that shit. And, and that has just led me to be at least a little more open. There's definitely still times where I'm like, nope, not for me. And that's okay. You know, as long as you give it a chance, I think it's totally okay to be... to move on.
Devin Dabney 46:49
I think so, too. I think so too. Because, I mean, the other reason for that is like, not all music from 40 years ago was good. I'm sure there's rappers from 40 years ago that you would turn on and be like, No, not for me. And... it's not just because it's old: old doesn't mean good. Like... and new doesn't mean bad. I think just remembering that music is music. And like, the the, like patterns of it are cyclical. You know, like, I bet you in like 20 or 30 years of music is gonna start to sound somewhat similar to the way it did a while ago, you know? Like it just, it isn't that... I don't know, it's the same story over and over again. And yeah, the more we can realize that, like music is just music. And, you know, it changes but it also doesn't change. I mean, even just like what you mentioned about the sampling, like, sampling is different. But there's also still sampling. It's just done differently. You know? And it's good to have, it's good to have younger people - I don't know how to say it other than that - in your life that can kind of, I guess... really, what I'm saying is, it's good to just be around different people. You know, I think as a, as a just like, as a human, like, I like to be around people who have different perspectives, viewpoints. And that kind of goes with music, too. Like I like to spend time with people who like different genres besides hip hop or like people that even... even people that hate hip hop, I still have as my friends. Or they just don't know anything about it. It just... perspective, you know, like... that's like my anti-aging medicine. Just: perspective.
Kris Hampton 48:33
I love it. I love it. Well said. If you are watching this on YouTube, or listening to it anywhere but Spotify, then you're missing half of the podcast. Every other week, we release short, focused essays set to beats followed by the full song that we're learning the lesson from. Those are only available on Spotify Premium. You only get 30 seconds of the song if you're a regular Spotify user, which is still better than nothing. Go check those out, please. We've got all of the links that I mentioned, we've got videos, bonus material at the blog posts for these episodes at: hiphoptaughtmeeverything.com. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter. And we'll see you next time when a velvet-voiced emcee teaches me confidence via one of the greatest diss tracks of all time.
Devin Dabney 49:29
Heck yeah.